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Greifers vs CCP, Hulkageddon is winning. Time for CCP to code changes.
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Raging YarrX
Coven Of Witches
C0VEN
#281 - 2012-07-03 08:32:01 UTC
CRAFT GUILD TIMEEEEEEEEEEE lololololololololololololol
Lady Flute
Ilmarinen Group
#282 - 2012-07-04 13:41:54 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Lady Flute wrote:
Bravo CCP, Bravo. I love the direction of the mining ship changes, and have had people who are teetering on quitting EVE alltogether make comments like "We might even start mining again with those new ships!".

What'll happen if they're still ganked, then?


Then you will be quite properly able to explain to people that mining is not meant to be risk free, and that they need to tank thier ships. However with the new balancing, that will actually be possible - you won't be able to kill a 300 million ISK ship with 3 cheap fit destroyers.

If you want to spend 10 billion+ to gank people with, you can and will kill nearly anything anywhere. What has been completely off is the balance - they added cheap, high DPS ships to the game, but didn't rebalance the mining ships. Now they are remedying that oversight; they ought to have done it a long time ago, but they are doing it now so bravo, better late than never.
Raging YarrX
Coven Of Witches
C0VEN
#283 - 2012-07-04 14:16:24 UTC
Lady Flute wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Lady Flute wrote:
Bravo CCP, Bravo. I love the direction of the mining ship changes, and have had people who are teetering on quitting EVE alltogether make comments like "We might even start mining again with those new ships!".

What'll happen if they're still ganked, then?


Then you will be quite properly able to explain to people that mining is not meant to be risk free, and that they need to tank thier ships. However with the new balancing, that will actually be possible - you won't be able to kill a 300 million ISK ship with 3 cheap fit destroyers.

If you want to spend 10 billion+ to gank people with, you can and will kill nearly anything anywhere. What has been completely off is the balance - they added cheap, high DPS ships to the game, but didn't rebalance the mining ships. Now they are remedying that oversight; they ought to have done it a long time ago, but they are doing it now so bravo, better late than never.


clearly did not read the devblog properly. covetor/hulks wont be seeing much change. its the procurers and retrievers with their t2 variants.
Losvar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#284 - 2012-07-04 20:35:27 UTC
Yay, let's see how inflated we can make the EvE economy by making hi sec a safe place! \o/

Suicide ganking is fantastic for the smart miners (keeping ore prices up), and bad for those that just afk mine in hi sec; just like it should be.

Making hi sec safe would also destroy the thing that most people find attractive about EvE, the sandbox.
Korgan Medel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#285 - 2012-07-06 17:03:28 UTC
Just no to everything.

When I started playing I was told dont auto pilot when hauling, I did it with around 300 mil of noxcium on board while watching tv, I paid the price I got blown up, But...... I learned my lesson now if I haul anything expensive I will use a cloak, through the gate, align, cloak and warp, sometimes I may even have a scout ahead and check the gates for industrial ships sat around at gates with other ships then reroute if I have to.

I can mine all day in my retriever and not get blown up, I have jet canned for months and only had it flipped once, If you want to use a hulk pay attention to what CCP says it is for "group operations" If you want to use it, then use it in a group if you have a couple of battle cruisers sat with them or a bs sat in the belt do you think you would still get popped.

Instead all I read are 100's of kill mails 1 hulk sat in a belt in 0.5 set up for max yield going boom, Learn something from your mistakes, If you want to solo mine do it in a retriever.
Rio Bravo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#286 - 2012-07-07 12:06:06 UTC
One of my hulks is tanked over 80%+ resists acrossed the board. It is Dead space and Faction fit. Had a group of five destroyers, and a hauler try and gank it. They got me to 80% structure before they all popped. Was funny, the hauler cleared up thier own ships and left the belt as I warped back to station. Can be survived...but not by new players. I have alot of tank skills I learned from missioning and incursions.
Realy the issue is about new players, and how the games culture affects subscriptions for CCP. Which in turn affects all players.
My response earlier was not whether ganking should happen, it's just how easy it is. You talk about risk for miners, well, maybe thier wasn't enough risk for gankers. They should pay more to do it maybe? idk...I think its just stupid.
The new mining rebalance will probably end ganking miners by noob alts as a profession. Except in the contracted hitman type encounter.
CCP wants to survive in the gaming world, and develope new players too. Not just have a diminishing group of old nerds dominate just because they like it that way. What? Are you established players scared of change? Afraid of new, up and coming players that might knock you off your mountain? Take your own advice, adapt to CCP's policy of sufferage to new subs, find new ways to protect your interests, or rage and quit EvE.
Everyones arguments contain self interest in it. I welcome the Mining Rebalance!

“You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. I dig.”  - Clint Eastwood, misquote.
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#287 - 2012-07-07 15:10:44 UTC  |  Edited by: True Sight
FYI: I'm an industrialist, I've never done ganking, wardecced people or griefed (well, beyond maybe a few people that genuinely deserved a little grief)

Lady Lupiah wrote:
A player doing a ~mining mission~ had their ore stolen by a player, who gave it back in another can. A yellow can. They then decloaked their Tengu and obliterated the new player, much to the latter's total dismay.

My friends, the time has come. Enough. There are many wolves in EVE, but they are now mocking CCP by overrunning the young sheep, such is their boredom. Null-sec, low-sec, and wormholes are not enough. They insist on killing new players and social orientated players for nothing more than "the payment in tears".


The player received a warning that in taking his ore, he would be able to be attacked by taking it, he accepted it and was attacked, this is a basic of how eve works.

Sucessful in-game players who pay for their accounts with PLEX do not pay for EVE.
Players who buy PLEX with real money do.

Moot point, If there were no players out there buying PLEX, then there would be zero demand, thus the people selling them wouldn't be buying PLEX from CCP, a PLEX subscriber is JUST as valuable to CCP as a person that pays with their credit card.

The different zones of space are intended to have a risk-reward axis, from safer from pvp but poor mission reward/low quality minerals to high risk / high rewards.

You're right, and if you hadn't taken from his can, he wouldn't have been able to blow up your ship without facing those concequences.

That design has been totally undermined by new ships, modules and rigs over the years: the gap between rich vet and poor new player is a problem.

The difference isn't age of playing, its smarts, a new, smart player can make millions in a day, billions in a month, a dumb player with common sense could create a Mackenaw mining fleet with 7 accounts (paid for by plex) and make billions a month, there are people that have been playing for 5+ years and struggle to replace their lost battleships.

Players like myself who were going to buy PLEX have chosen not to, due directly to Hulkageddon. I was going to buy PLEX to get an orca, more PLEX to have a hulk-ready toon moved to a new account. But now it's a bad risk. I know others who were going to buy PLEX to pay for BPOs. But they can't mine the minerals now to use the BPOs so no PLEX needed.

You just implied above that PLEX subscribers are less valuable to CCP, and now you're saying you wanted to be one of them? if we agree with your above statement, we don't care if you leave, because you weren't willing to pay for EVE anyway, so no loss to the business.

Players like myself who were going to buy PLEX have chosen not to, due directly to Hulkageddon. I was going to buy PLEX to get an orca, more PLEX to have a hulk-ready toon moved to a new account. But now it's a bad risk. I know others who were going to buy PLEX to pay for BPOs. But they can't mine the minerals now to use the BPOs so no PLEX needed.

These events only last for so long, everyone is once again back to normal.

Can a miner, through hard work and industry, make thier on mining ship? No: they cannot. The moon goo debacle is making some corps/allainces super rich, and has destroyed the basic concept of EVE, that you can get there if you work hard enough. T2 Moon goo market has, in effect, failed, which CCP has now tacitly acknowledged by adding T3 ships which take different things to make.

Yes, they can, why else are there miners out there and hundreds of Covetors, Macks, hulks, orca's rorquals selling on the market every week?

Lady Lupiah wrote:
A. Double the hold space on all exhumers. It is a joke that some combat ships have more hold space than ORE ships.


Your entire complaint up until now is about gankers, why on earth does a cargo capacity change any of your arguements as to why you're going to quit?

Lady Lupiah wrote:
C. Fix the DPS/defence impalance. Destoyers were added, then repeatedly upgraded with mods and later rigs, and faction ammo etc etc etc. 4 destroyers will always kill a solo Hulk, in any level of security, even though they can be made for less cost than the Hulk's mining turrets and crystals.


they are meant to be that easily killable, because you don't like it, doesn't mean its broken.

Lady Lupiah wrote:
D. Fix social guiild war-griefing. Add a new type of Corp, a "Craft Guild", that cannot initiate wars, be war decced, or own any PoS / soverignty structures. It shouldbe able to be upgreaded to a full Corp for a cost based on a multiplier of its number of members. Social gameplay increases player retention: what we have at the moment are billionaire alts in new player corps who fly ships so large they are effectively immune to griefing, and greifers making people taking the step from solo to team player simply quit the game.


They are called NPC corporations.
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#288 - 2012-07-07 15:11:08 UTC  |  Edited by: True Sight
Lady Lupiah wrote:
E. Introduce moon mining to 0.7 and lower planets, with mini-variant PoS (not as big, not as efficient, not exclusive per moon, but with Concord protection). Supply and demand has effectively failed many players: there is no way for social / casual players to copy / do ME research / refine / mine moon goos: yet the T1 ships are now effectively obsolete for the game content (mining, incursions, missions are all geared to the higher level ships/modules).[/b]


It's called 'Planetary Interaction'. Additionally I have in the past made billions from doing Reactions and T2 invention/manufacturing, without owning a single moon myself. If EVERY SINGLE PLAYER (like you're suggesting) could farm Technetium, it would be worth 3isk per unit, and you have now destroyed alliance warfare since half the alliances have lost a major reason to fight eachother now.

Lady Lupiah wrote:
stuff about T1 ships being rubbish


Beyond being a new-player stepping stone, Tech 1 ships are still used daily, maybe you don't see as many cruiser gangs as HAC gangs, but they still all have their purpose.

Lady Lupiah wrote:
F. Introduce advanced drones for miners. In particular, a dampner drone, that when depolyed hides the site and ship from a system scan. Even if it is tagged "This clever device uses Concord towers to achieve its aim, so simply won't work where Concord are not as common" (e.g. 0.8 ~ 1.0 systems only).


As someone with 18m SP in drones, I'm not generally one to say no to more, but there's MEANT to be risk, you are never meant to be 100% safe in eve unless you're docked inside a space station.

Lady Lupiah wrote:
G. Consequences. ..... and when a player is scammed, they should be able to report the scammer ... i,e, a GM ... they deserve it, mainly for costing CCP real income due to customer loss.


EVE is a unique game, scamming is supported, you also have no idea of how business works, you're basically asking for a Game Master to investigate EVERY SINGLE SCAM to verify if its a 'real scam or not' review chat logs, contracts, trades, forum posts etc, Do you have ANY idea how much a Game Master costs?

A) Pay for 50 more Game Masters
b) Loose 100 players who quit due to being scammed

which do you think costs CCP more money?
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#289 - 2012-07-07 15:19:45 UTC
Lady Lupiah wrote:
... you clearly don't actually know how people have been killing hulks. By the time a thrasher appears in your belt, you are already dead, even with a T2 defensive fit, ECM drones out, and aligned to station. Stop blaming miners for poor game balance, as if it was the miners fault CCP upped small ship DPS massively but didn't improve mining ship defences.


The whole point is it's not meant to be a solo game, you can easily have people defending your fragile ships. It's actually safer to mine in 0.0, where you know when/where the bad people are coming from. For the most part, mining is 0 risk, there's that tiny little risk a ganker might come along, that's better than no risk at all, as a industrialist, i'm glad people go out and gank my competition and the macro farmers, makes the market better for my sales :)


Lady Lupiah wrote:
"Safety is something you fight for" ... no. Saftey comes from having 6 accounts, years of training to fly ships that are effectively invulnerable in High Sec, and the billions of ISK to never pay a real $ for it.


"having 6 accounts" isn't something reserved to 7 year vets, a brand new player can have 7 accounts, he can have all of them mining insidie of 7 days, good miners in 21 days, great miners in 40, at which point you can pay for every single one with a PLEX, doesn't require a 90m sp main to do either.

Lady Lupiah wrote:
Case in point: Orca. Can it mine solo? No. It's a ship for mulitiboxer players, basically.


Err, no. whilst thats what some people use it for, many use it for hauling, transporting ships, boosting straight out corporate mining gangs, hauling in 0.0 to a Rorqual for compression.

Lady Lupiah wrote:
The "door is that way" attitude is crap. This game has double the numbers it had 5 years ago. But guess what, it has nothing next to most games. Will EVE be here in another 5 years? I certainly hope so. Will it have its playerbase still? ....well that's much harder to judge. Given the greifing and already a threat to try and have me banned in-game for speaking up, I am really not so sure.


Until someone brings out something to compete with eve, which hasn't happened so far in 9 years, it's subscriber base will likely continue to grow, since they always keep the graphics engine up-to-date, the game never looks 'old and tired' to new people discovering it.

Lady Lupiah wrote:
Bottom line - think about what is happening in the game, and what it does to players comming back / joinign the game. CCP does, and as things stand, my view is CCP is going to need to hard code in changes to better protect new players. And the turorials still suck, sorry. Not as much as they used to, but ... yeah, they really need work still. Roll


Maybe some players left for the right reason.... this game isn't for them. World of Warcraft is hugely successful (100x more than EVE), but some people quit the game, does that mean Blizzard should change the core functionality of their game for that small portion of players that didn't like how it plays? ... no.

WoW has its Market, eve has its market, maybe you should simply accept that EVE isn't the game for you? even if some of its feature really appeal to you.
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#290 - 2012-07-07 15:26:29 UTC
Lady Lupiah wrote:
They will when it hits thier quarterly and annual income figures and someone asks "why are we failing to grow / maintain subs as intended?".


You're acting like this is some recent change, the game has been like this for 9 years, they know full well the impact of their game design choices (such as scamming), its not suddenly going to jump out of some subscription chart tomorrow and make them scream to change it.

Lady Lupiah wrote:
As for hulks being gank-proof in Highsec, so what if they were? Freighers are, Orcas are (mostly). This game has no design consistency any more, so conceptually either hulks can be upped to effectively immune to ganking by ships not costing 300 mil+ (equivalence), or the currently immune High Sec billionaire trade alts have to be made not effectively immune - and that is not going to happen, is it? Cool Why is it ok for one game-play style (trader) to be effectively immune to harm in space, but not miner?


Freighters are NOT gank proof. Orca's are NOT gank proof remotely, there are plenty of people out there that spend weeks stalking some NPC corp freighter pilot, know when he's got billions of isk of materials and AFK auto-piloting 30 jumps and they will gank him with a battleship fleet for profit.

One alliance has also done similar simply for fun (and to proove the point, no where in eve is 100% safe outside of sitting in a space station.

Lady Lupiah wrote:
Oh, and just so you remember - CCP *did* make it safer for traders in Highsec, by adding "Warp to 0km" to stargates. When you used to jump to 15km out every time, they were much more at risk of pvp. Guess what, people didn't like the pace of travel, so CCP carebeared up on that and made it quicker - and made traders MUCH safer, too. So don't tell me CCP will never change things like this - they have in the past, and many here simply choose to forget how much CCP changes things. Bring back cruise missles for my bomber! Roll


Warp to 0 was added because crafty players worked out how to do it with bookmarks already, which meant players had to do horribly tedious bookmark creation, and then would have an 'unfair advantage' the mechanic was changed to actually make things more fair for everyone, even pvpers.

Lady Lupiah wrote:
PvP pilots should not be so bored they have nothing better to do than spend hours trying to get people to take a can, and mining 1 gas cloud so that people give up on poorly designed missions (which incidentally should be mine x units, with a check of you personally mined x-30% of it, and the mission resource has 3x of the relevant crap mission resource - basic coding, currnety set up to promote greifing and encourage people to quit the game ; not designed for pvp as a solo mining ship can never stop anyone taking 1 unit with their T2/T3/faction fit ship).


all MMO's have griefers, they play to grief, thats their profession, take away can flipping, they'll find the next thing to do, take away scamming, they'll find the next thing to do. happens in EVERY online game for that matter.

Lady Lupiah wrote:
Save a carebear today, improve CCP's bottom line, and give them enough dev money to fix the damn game, and to be able to make a video that shows gameplay as it actually is for new players, not as CCP wishes it to be but never was.


Again, I'm a carebear industrialist, I think for the most part, the mechanics are fine and you're simply whining because this game doesn't work the way you want it too. I don't think eve is perfect, there's a million things they could change, I just don't remotely agree with any of your suggestions.
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#291 - 2012-07-07 16:02:19 UTC
Lady Lupiah wrote:
And yes, changing insurance for all T2 ships should happen. It likely hasn't because CCP wants people to buy PLEX to get the ISK to replace thier ships, rather than just using insurace payouts: if that is the case, then naughty naughty on CCP; them fixing T2 insurance will be a clear message that isn't what they are up to on that.


You realise, if T2 ships paid out good insurance, you'll simply start getting ganked in T2 ships too right? even easier for a HAC to gank you now!

Lady Lupiah wrote:
PLEX is wonderful, until you have to pay staff salaries and advertising costs. Then you need real money, and if they do not retain their new player base (who pay with a credit card), then all the vets with stacks of PLEX are not going to help them one little bit.


This is probably the most stupid comment of yours I've seen so far, if there's 10,000 plex on the market, that means there's 10,000 months of subscription ALREADY paid to CCP? they actually got the money in advance!

And now, even cooler, 100 of those plex could get blow up by gankers, then CCP never even has to honor those 100 months of gametime (saves them expenses on bandwidth!

PLEX = MONEY. plain and simple.

Danika Princip wrote:
Hulk is already in warp by the time the BS gets out of warp. I'll add in mining well away from the warpin point and leaving a can over at it to decloak too if you like.

I am well aware that if someone wants me dead, I already am. There are, however, steps that can be taken to make it harder for them. Wasting a smartbomb BS on one solitary hulk instead of a swarm of macks in any ice field you like? That's one of those ways. It won't deter someone who's determined to get me and me alone, but honestly, it's not about making my hulk invulnerable, it's about making the guy want to shoot yours instead.


majordumb. if someone wants to SB miners, the very first thing they do is enter the belt in a stealth bomber and bookmark... then the SB Battleship will appear out of nowhere and land ontop of you, just as the guy you quoted said he would kill you.

Lady Flute wrote:
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA

Told you we would see hard coded changes if players did not change their ways.


You know the HULK is staying exactly as fragile as it is RIGHT NOW ?




In final summary: http://i.qkme.me/3ocj3a.jpg
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#292 - 2012-07-07 16:04:26 UTC
True Sight wrote:
This is probably the most stupid comment of yours I've seen so far, if there's 10,000 plex on the market, that means there's 10,000 months of subscription ALREADY paid to CCP? they actually got the money in advance!

Actually, those PLEXes cost more than even the most expensive monthly subscription option.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#293 - 2012-07-08 03:11:38 UTC
Why is this ****posting faggotry still here?

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Grand Zap
Abysmal Void Armada
#294 - 2012-07-08 06:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Grand Zap
Let there be sandbox, not retardocity. Let there be liberty or death!
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#295 - 2012-07-08 13:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
I like the idea of more diversity in the mining ships.

Having said that, inb4 miners crying a ******* ocean of tears because they can't have max tank and max yield in one ship.
Tommassino Preldent
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2012-07-09 07:59:55 UTC
Eve is about balance, how easy it is to kill a hulk now is not balanced. I dont agree with most of the OPs suggestions, but giving the solo hulk means of defence against 3 or 4 destroyers is a good idea IMHO. Let the stupid miners that dont fit tank die, give the clever miners a chance against most ganks.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#297 - 2012-07-09 09:11:32 UTC
Tommassino Preldent wrote:
Eve is about balance, how easy it is to kill a hulk now is not balanced. I dont agree with most of the OPs suggestions, but giving the solo hulk means of defence against 3 or 4 destroyers is a good idea IMHO. Let the stupid miners that dont fit tank die, give the clever miners a chance against most ganks.

This is literally how it is today. Apparently people are so bad at fitting their ships that CCP have to make changes to force them to fit their ship properly. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
LinearBurn Aideron
Hells legion
#298 - 2012-07-11 15:32:11 UTC  |  Edited by: LinearBurn Aideron
A simple soultion is to fix it if you eject from a ship in empire and a criminal jumps in it the orgional player gets a aagression countdown/sec hit if the greever kills some one /incress concord responce time to blast criminals as soon as they are ina new ship like under the time it take to warp so no warp skipping which is a exploit in my opinion , im no miner but i agree a destroyer should not be able to kill a hulk in less time than concord can respond, maby add a skill for singiture masking 5% reduction in hostal lock time per lv 16x training multiplyrer or a skill modual combo decresses enemy lock time per lv
Tyr Aeron
L0pht Systems
#299 - 2012-07-17 06:19:00 UTC
OMG!!!! This friggin' cry-fest is STILL going on?

Look, yesterday, I flew from Amarr to the armpit of Placid, an ungodly number of jumps through the main gank pipe systems (Niarja, Uemon, etc.) and I did it in a Bestower hauling 2 GSC's worth 2.5B in goods.

I was shot at by gank Tornados on 4 separate occasions along the trip and not one of those poor, dumb S.O.B.'s got me below 60% shield. CONCORD was happy to relieve them of their ships though. (Not one of them expected to see a TANKED indy. Somehow this is a novel concept.)

If I can fit that kind of tank on a friggin' Bestower, then you sniveling bears can sure as hell tank a Hulk to survive a destroyer gank. Put a little effort into it, sacrifice some yield and/or cargo capacity and put something on there to make the damn thing survive more than a flea crashing into it.

If you want a game that you can play without any risk, may I recommend Hello Kitty Online. If there is no risk, there is no reward, and with the current price of high-sec mins, you bears should be parked in a 0.9 or 1.0 system mining all the Veldspar your little nubbins can reach. That's as good as it's going to get. High pay out for very minimal risk. Take it or leave it, I don't care. I'm just sick of the whining.
Lady Flute
Ilmarinen Group
#300 - 2012-07-20 12:05:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Flute
Lord Zim wrote:
Tommassino Preldent wrote:
Eve is about balance, how easy it is to kill a hulk now is not balanced. I dont agree with most of the OPs suggestions, but giving the solo hulk means of defence against 3 or 4 destroyers is a good idea IMHO. Let the stupid miners that dont fit tank die, give the clever miners a chance against most ganks.

This is literally how it is today. Apparently people are so bad at fitting their ships that CCP have to make changes to force them to fit their ship properly. vOv


No, it is not how it is today. That is why CCP is changing it. Properly fit T2 defences only modules + rigs on a hulk will still lose to a ganker squad who are vaguely competent, because the gankers have had 5 years of damage upgrades.

I think CCP needs to remember that this is a game. It is a cornerstone of most PvP games that instant kills and always-wins builds should never be possible because they dumb down the game to all attackers using the instant kill tactic, and everyone else who hasn't rerolled to that yet.

The current Alpha levels are simply too high, making combat frequently too short and hence boring. The quintisential fight in EVE is about two different ships using all of the tactical tools in the game to fight each other, in essence like a fencing duel with reposte, parry, counterthrust etc. Currently we have uncloak or warp in, instant lock and instant melt tactics, mainly due to overheating being radically too effective. That is as boring in nullsec to someone on an SBU as it is to highsec miners - pvp in a game needs to be fun, dynamic, and upredictable, or the game suffers. Currently a cloaked hotdrop ship in nullsec has total first strike advantage with no possiblity of being found, just as much as a cloaked scout in a belt marking a jump in point for a gank squad on a miner. You guys are so quick to blame miners for being upset about bad game design that you seem to forget that this is a game and that if the balance is off the game will suffer for it - as any other pvp game would.


  • A person you have no chance to locate hence no chance to pvp against is boring. (advanced cloaking in nullsec)
  • A person you have no chance of surviving their alpha is boring. (Highsec ganking).
  • A fight that is so fast there is no possibility of tactical manouvering is boring. (instant lock web alphas dominating nullsec 1 v 1 pvp).


Stop whining about miners learning to fit (when you can't achieve what you claim) and blaming miners for wanting to see the game improve, step back, and look at the big picture. Currently there are a range of things in EVE that are simply off, in terms of balance. The best fights are nearly only when a titan gets pointed and it goes fleet vs fleet, and there is time for both sides to actually play - either making tactical mistakes or not. Most pvp is currently as boringly vanialla as WoW combat - sneak attack sap, backstab, win without the other guy having a chance to do anything. EVE is better than that, and the Developers who have been increasing DPS over and over and over to appease the whiny pvp crowd have a lot to answer for, because they have dumbed down the game. The recent ship chances announced show that the developers have realizied some of thier number have gone too far, and they are looking to restore the balance to make engaging, unpredictable, and dynamic pvp again a feature of EVE. Currently it's not - you see the ship type on DScan, and you know how the fight will play out before (or if) there ever is a pvp encounter. That is as boring as fighting rogues in WOW with a shaman - you know who wins before anyone clicks their macro. EVE is better than that, and I exepct the community to be better than that too - stop attacking people for making comments in an endeavour to improve the game.

If you disagree with suggestions, say why you disagree rather than attacking the person. If you don't like the suggestions, then offer up better ones (and many above have including e.g. security system consequence changes). But bottom line stop using the precise same tactics I would expect to see on the WoW development forums - you make yourselves look like whiny children rather than adults playing the most complicated MMORPG ever made.