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[I-RED] Wiyrkomi Honor Guard - A Success Story
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Marrano Cardosa
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#21 - 2012-07-09 23:35:40 UTC
Natalcya Katla wrote:


Hardly. The law isn't there to kow-tow to justice, which will in any case never be more than a subjective, emotion-driven ideal. It is there to facilitate the smooth operation of society. An ideally objective system through which to address grievances is just one facet of the whole legal structure.

By all means, if you find a law to be unjust, go ahead and campaign or petition to have it changed through whatever legal channels exist to do so. But if you discard the law for the sake of justice, you are nothing more than a vigilante, and vigilantism is equally disruptive to society as any other breach of law - it is a crime like any other. Neither better nor worse.

Not that any of this actually applies to the situation discussed. Last I checked, it was unfortunately perfectly legal for capsuleers to blow each other to pieces as much as they please within the entire region of Syndicate.


Such is the argument of the tyrant. A free soceity does not call Justice a subjective emotion-drive ideal, but rather sees Justice as one of the keys to legitimacy for law. Oppression is the order of the day when "the smooth operation of society" trumps Justice in the application and construction of the law.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2012-07-09 23:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Marrano Cardosa wrote:
A free soceity does not call Justice a subjective emotion-drive ideal, but rather sees Justice as one of the keys to legitimacy for law. Oppression is the order of the day when "the smooth operation of society" trumps Justice in the application and construction of the law.


To reach the same conclusion by a different road: justice is "appropriateness" in the eyes of a society. In other words, it is a subjective, emotion-driven ideal ... which must be satisfied for the smooth operation of that society.

The real trick is whether the authorities try to provide the genuine article (hard when faced with difficult, high-profile cases, but holds up under scrutiny) or whether it is considered adequate that justice is seen to be done (easy, but more readily subject to corruption and dangerous to look at too closely). I suspect that all but the most dedicated do the latter when they think they have to.
Hoshisuuvi
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
#23 - 2012-07-10 00:20:06 UTC
IGS: Where you too can go from simple public affairs release to philosophical debate in less than 72 hours.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2012-07-10 00:32:36 UTC
Hoshisuuvi wrote:
IGS: Where you too can go from simple public affairs release to philosophical debate in less than 72 hours.


Or three, if the public affairs release is from the Amarr.... Or anybody at all, if people are feeling talkative. I'm impressed that it's lasted this long without somebody publishing an angry denunciation of I-RED, of us, or of both. I guess we're not very controversial at the moment.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-07-10 00:33:42 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Hoshisuuvi wrote:
IGS: Where you too can go from simple public affairs release to philosophical debate in less than 72 hours.


Or three, if the public affairs release is from the Amarr.... Or anybody at all, if people are feeling talkative. I'm impressed that it's lasted this long without somebody publishing an angry denunciation of I-RED, of us, or of both. I guess we're not very controversial at the moment.


Give them time, they just haven't gotten to know us yet.

~Malcolm Khross
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#26 - 2012-07-10 03:13:06 UTC
We're frankly not interested or concerned about this little discussion over piracy. However, those involved in the above discussion are welcome to debate it to exhaustion. Whatever helps them sleep better at night, right?

In fact, we're all a little surprised it took this long for the controversy to develop.

Katrina Oniseki
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#27 - 2012-07-10 04:24:42 UTC
Marrano Cardosa wrote:
Such is the argument of the tyrant. A free soceity does not call Justice a subjective emotion-drive ideal, but rather sees Justice as one of the keys to legitimacy for law. Oppression is the order of the day when "the smooth operation of society" trumps Justice in the application and construction of the law.


Although I'm hardly in favor of what I suspect you would regard as a "free society", I don't see how my argument above is the "argument of a tyrant". I'm saying that if you would see legislation cleave closer to what you consider to be "just", then you should work to achieve that through proper legal channels and abide by the outcome, whatever the outcome turns out to be.

Justice that is held above the law is often referred to as "lynch justice". It has no place within civilized society.
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#28 - 2012-07-10 05:31:55 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Hoshisuuvi wrote:
IGS: Where you too can go from simple public affairs release to philosophical debate in less than 72 hours.


Or three, if the public affairs release is from the Amarr.... Or anybody at all, if people are feeling talkative. I'm impressed that it's lasted this long without somebody publishing an angry denunciation of I-RED, of us, or of both. I guess we're not very controversial at the moment.


Give them time, they just haven't gotten to know us yet.


Some prefer to not air the laundry in front of the whole cluster.

Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#29 - 2012-07-10 06:05:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorion Wassenar
Aria Jenneth wrote:


... Actually, I'm kind of encouraged to hear Mr. Wassenar recognizing anybody's sovereign power. I may misunderstand his perspective, or be conflating his views with those of Star Fraction, but I really didn't think he had any respect for governmental authority of any sort.


What I don't recognize gets me in plenty of trouble. The Syndicate has no quarrel from me.

Rote Kapelle - NOW IN SLIGHTLY MORE LAW ABIDING FLAVOR!

"DRINK STARSI!" ©®™Ownership Group Chairman
Marrano Cardosa
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#30 - 2012-07-10 13:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Marrano Cardosa
Natalcya Katla wrote:
Marrano Cardosa wrote:
Such is the argument of the tyrant. A free soceity does not call Justice a subjective emotion-drive ideal, but rather sees Justice as one of the keys to legitimacy for law. Oppression is the order of the day when "the smooth operation of society" trumps Justice in the application and construction of the law.


Although I'm hardly in favor of what I suspect you would regard as a "free society", I don't see how my argument above is the "argument of a tyrant". I'm saying that if you would see legislation cleave closer to what you consider to be "just", then you should work to achieve that through proper legal channels and abide by the outcome, whatever the outcome turns out to be.

Justice that is held above the law is often referred to as "lynch justice". It has no place within civilized society.


You don't understand what a civil society is if you think that law supercedes Justice. In a civil or free society, Law is to implement Justice and so Law can never be above it.

Law as you define it, is simply the might of those who hold power to impose their will. Law without the support of Justice is simply oppression, no matter if it is one or a majority who makes the law. The tryanny of the majority is no less a tryanny that the lone Tyrannt.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#31 - 2012-07-10 14:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Natalcya Katla wrote:
I don't see how my argument above is the "argument of a tyrant".


Aren't you a Nation loyalist? Nearly everything you say should be considered spoken on behalf of one of the most infamous tyrants New Eden has ever spawned, Sansha Kuvakei. If not, well perhaps you're not a very good loyalist.

EDIT: No that's not an ad hominem. It's merely an unrelated jab, because you're a dirty toaster. Blink

Katrina Oniseki
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#32 - 2012-07-10 15:44:59 UTC
Marrano Cardosa wrote:
You don't understand what a civil society is if you think that law supercedes Justice. In a civil or free society, Law is to implement Justice and so Law can never be above it.

Law as you define it, is simply the might of those who hold power to impose their will. Law without the support of Justice is simply oppression, no matter if it is one or a majority who makes the law. The tryanny of the majority is no less a tryanny that the lone Tyrannt.


Whose justice is it meant to implement, exactly? As I touched upon earlier, justice is inherently subjective. What one person views as just, another might find abhorrent. Law, while certainly not without root in the subjective views of the legislators, provides a framework of behavior that every member of society is held accountable to. Opting out of the rules just because you think they are unfair - which is what putting justice above law invariably leads to - is disruptive and harmful to society. It should really be self-evident.

Also, most sets of laws aren't nearly so asphyxiating as their decriers would have one believe. If you can't get what you want within the written rules of society, it's usually because you are either uncreative or lazy.
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#33 - 2012-07-10 15:51:26 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Aren't you a Nation loyalist? Nearly everything you say should be considered spoken on behalf of one of the most infamous tyrants New Eden has ever spawned, Sansha Kuvakei. If not, well perhaps you're not a very good loyalist.

EDIT: No that's not an ad hominem. It's merely an unrelated jab, because you're a dirty toaster. Blink


I am a capsuleer in Naqam, and Naqam is affiliated with the Nation.

I am also a person, with personal opinions. You are free to disbelieve it, of course.

How would you like your bread?
Faelan Maris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-07-10 17:52:04 UTC
Forgive this intrusion into an interesting digression, but for the original news: best respects to the Honor Guard and I-RED for their success! It is always pleasant to hear about setbacks for those who choose to suppress legitimate business ventures, and all the more so when it is by the actions of fellow affiliates of the State.

Fly well and fair profits to our compatriots of Ishukone and Wiyrkomi.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-07-10 23:59:42 UTC
While we're on the topic of RELAX taking it in the shorts, so to speak...they lost another good three and a half billion ISK in ships and pods in Class 5 space (3 Tengus, a Noctis, and 3 pods) courtesy of The Red Circle Inc.

Combat records can be found here and here.


So, any guesses as to what ISK-eating blunder Hedonistic Imperative will make next?
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#36 - 2012-07-11 00:47:58 UTC
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:

So, any guesses as to what ISK-eating blunder Hedonistic Imperative will make next?


I for one would prefer that Hedonistic Imperative be afforded a greater measure of respect that that, Tarunik.

Katrina Oniseki
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#37 - 2012-07-11 11:39:34 UTC
...

A dread exploded... I wasnt involved...

/me sniffles and closes the connection, sadly

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-07-11 12:12:58 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:

So, any guesses as to what ISK-eating blunder Hedonistic Imperative will make next?


I for one would prefer that Hedonistic Imperative be afforded a greater measure of respect that that, Tarunik.

That is why I am not the alliance diplomat, although I don't know if Bane's really that much better *chuckles*
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#39 - 2012-07-11 12:20:41 UTC
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:

So, any guesses as to what ISK-eating blunder Hedonistic Imperative will make next?


I for one would prefer that Hedonistic Imperative be afforded a greater measure of respect that that, Tarunik.

That is why I am not the alliance diplomat, although I don't know if Bane's really that much better *chuckles*


Only you, Tarunik, could take the opportunity to talk smack on a kill you were not even tangently involved in, even past the objections of the people actually involved.
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