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EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

 
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Alliance Tornament X - What a joke

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Matius Toskavich
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-07-11 10:36:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
Dealmaking dont makes it fun, makes it ********.
Dealmaking makes it EVE, and exposes player skills that other tournaments miss… Blink

Also, it doesn't particularly have to do with the “in-game influence” of the alliance, but rather of the dealmaking skills of the tourney participants — slightly different thing.

Quote:
why not make it an alliance auction then?
Because that's a completely different thing as well. It's not a matter of bidding the most — it's a matter of convincing the other guy to lose (or, failing that, of blowing them up).

Quote:
However you try to justify it as metagaming, in the end, calling it a tornament is just a farce.
How so? Metagaming is part of the alliance life — this is an alliance tournament. If it tests more than the ability to cram pilots into ships, how does that take away from the tournament aspect?


Well the abilty to make a deal to make it through to the next round, doesn't make much of a tornament. This is the thing that I am so dispaointed with. To see the big names of EVE fighting it out, piloting skill and mistakes is something that was I was looking for, not the ability to pay off the other team to get through.

Yes, there hae been some interesting fights, but what is real? What do I try to strive for as a newer player? The ability to fly or just pay someone off?
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-07-11 10:37:27 UTC
Ancillary Shield Booster: Fixed Matches Edition X: Electric Boogaloo

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Etil DeLaFuente
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-07-11 10:37:29 UTC
Metagaming didn't screw last year tournament at all right ? I quiet agree with the op, ccp should take more care about deals made during a fight.
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-07-11 10:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Cebraio
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
There is no such thing as a fair fight in EVE.


This is a Tournament, not a skirmish in a gate or a blob fest to get a system. I understant your point but that should not apply in this kind of events.

And you make it sound that pvp in eve is the most simple thing and we both know it's not.


Compare the mechanics of EVE PvP to a game like Supreme Commander, and then tell me its even remotely complicated.

Once you learn what each ship is capable of, which fits are likely, and how to move in order to give yourself an edge, there isn't much more depth to dig into.

It's been a while since I played Supreme Commander (I), but I didn't find that particularly complex. Once you learn what each unit is capable of ... well, there it stops. You just have to know the units and maybe the strategic possibilities to win. No fittings and no special movement tactics involved.

I think there are actually a lot of nuances in EVE PvP, which are not apparent at first glance.

About this Tournament I must admit, I haven't seen any videos yet. Who brought the Kronoses?
Wille Sanara
No Shoosting
#25 - 2012-07-11 10:47:02 UTC
AT is getting worse every year and every year we see more and more dishonesth bargains in local out there and other crap. CCP should make AT something exciting to watch, not something everyone would know in advance how it ends.Roll Just my opinion.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#26 - 2012-07-11 10:50:13 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
There is no such thing as a fair fight in EVE.


This is a Tournament, not a skirmish in a gate or a blob fest to get a system. I understant your point but that should not apply in this kind of events.

And you make it sound that pvp in eve is the most simple thing and we both know it's not.


Compare the mechanics of EVE PvP to a game like Supreme Commander, and then tell me its even remotely complicated.

Once you learn what each ship is capable of, which fits are likely, and how to move in order to give yourself an edge, there isn't much more depth to dig into.

It's been a while since I played Supreme Commander (I), but I didn't find that particularly complex. Once you learn what each unit is capable of ... well, there it stops. You just have to know the units and maybe the strategic possibilities to win. No fittings and no special movement tactics involved.

I think there are actually a lot of nuances in EVE PvP, which are not apparent at first glance.

About this Tournament I must admit, I haven't seen any videos yet. Who brought the Kronuses?


Resource management in a rate-based economy, actual strategic planning, timing, real counterattacks, building synergy, the ability to actually use terrain to your advantage... SupCom was unbeleivably deep, even for an RTS. The scale was massive.

You had to take into account things down to the level of remembering to keep the air above your counter-missile silo clear, because those missiles would fly straight into a unit and detonate rather than stop a nuke if you didn't. Playing SupCom at the top level pretty much required that you were naturally talented at proper strategy (the only RTS to do strategy right, tbh. Everything else only does tactics).
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2012-07-11 11:00:09 UTC
Matius Toskavich wrote:
Well the abilty to make a deal to make it through to the next round, doesn't make much of a tornament.
Yeah, see… that's why you don't enjoy it: because you're missing the bigger picture — it's not just about making it to the next round, and it's the exact same shenanigans you'll see in any points-based tournament. Blink

Quote:
To see the big names of EVE fighting it out, piloting skill and mistakes is something that was I was looking for, not the ability to pay off the other team to get through.
But again, the fighting and piloting is such a small subset of what determines a fight in EVE — preparation, intel, and proper FCing are often far more important. The kinds of matches where piloting skill becomes a determining factor are often so evenly matched as to be rather boring. It can get kind of interesting and fun, when it gets down to a 1v1 position at the very last minute of the match (cf. Nighthawk vs. Abaddon in AT6, I think it was), but beyond that, it's not really what the fights are about.
Mirime Nolwe
Mantra of Pain
#28 - 2012-07-11 11:00:28 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
There is no such thing as a fair fight in EVE.


This is a Tournament, not a skirmish in a gate or a blob fest to get a system. I understant your point but that should not apply in this kind of events.

And you make it sound that pvp in eve is the most simple thing and we both know it's not.


Compare the mechanics of EVE PvP to a game like Supreme Commander, and then tell me its even remotely complicated.

Once you learn what each ship is capable of, which fits are likely, and how to move in order to give yourself an edge, there isn't much more depth to dig into.


Never played that game so can't say.. Anyway, it takes time and effort to understand every ship in the game and were it fits, what to do vs 10000 situations vs any other ships and compositions, and considering the fact that the other players might have a "out of the box" fit that ruins your standard procedure vs ship x. And lets not forget that player skill and experiencie take a major part in the equation. In my opinion we have too many variables and that is what makes pvp in EVE special.

This kind of events is the only time we can see good pilots skirmish with fair odds against each other and that should not be ruined by outside lobbys.

I'm not a pvp expert, very far from it but it's just my opinion
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-07-11 11:04:42 UTC
Matius Toskavich wrote:
As a newbie to EVE, I was excited to see the tornament being advertised. Then got to see some replays. Why the **** bother... Might as well call it Alliance Match Fixing - no skills needed.

Deals in local during the matches, deals made before the matches.. pfft what a waste and CPP should be embarrassed.

Flame on - Care factor 0

Forum Alt = Tick


So it's like real life sports , except CCP is honest enough to allow people to openly talk about it.


~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Matius Toskavich
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-07-11 11:07:24 UTC
Quote:
]But again, the fighting and piloting is such a small subset of what determines a fight in EVE — preparation, intel, and proper FCing are often far more important. The kinds of matches where piloting skill becomes a determining factor are often so evenly matched as to be rather boring. It can get kind of interesting and fun, when it gets down to a 1v1 position at the very last minute of the match (cf. Nighthawk vs. Abaddon in AT6, I think it was), but beyond that, it's not really what the fights are about.


None of what you are saying though even hints at paying the other team off. Prep, intel and a good FC are exactly the things I was looking for, not a bidding war and if you are upset enough to be stubborn and run to a draw because the offer wasn't big enough.
Matius Toskavich
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-07-11 11:08:32 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Matius Toskavich wrote:
As a newbie to EVE, I was excited to see the tornament being advertised. Then got to see some replays. Why the **** bother... Might as well call it Alliance Match Fixing - no skills needed.

Deals in local during the matches, deals made before the matches.. pfft what a waste and CPP should be embarrassed.

Flame on - Care factor 0

Forum Alt = Tick


So it's like real life sports , except CCP is honest enough to allow people to openly talk about it.




Heh this is true, sadly but true. Maybe that is the case then in EVE.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2012-07-11 11:14:16 UTC
Matius Toskavich wrote:
None of what you are saying though even hints at paying the other team off. Prep, intel and a good FC are exactly the things I was looking for, not a bidding war and if you are upset enough to be stubborn and run to a draw because the offer wasn't big enough.
The point is: what you said you wanted to see is the stuff you're not going to see because it is not particularly to the match. What you are going to “see” is the above, which is all back-room stuff that you only notice the results of. The bribes you're complaining about are also part of that back-room dealing, only it occasionally happens in full view.

The objective is to win. What you're seeing is teams doing what they can to achieve that goal. Since this is EVE, scruples go right out the window and you get the fight in all its glory — not some cleaned-up kayfabe version.
Matius Toskavich
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-07-11 11:17:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Matius Toskavich wrote:
None of what you are saying though even hints at paying the other team off. Prep, intel and a good FC are exactly the things I was looking for, not a bidding war and if you are upset enough to be stubborn and run to a draw because the offer wasn't big enough.
The point is: what you said you wanted to see is the stuff you're not going to see because it is not particularly to the match. What you are going to “see” is the above, which is all back-room stuff that you only notice the results of. The bribes you're complaining about are also part of that back-room dealing, only it occasionally happens in full view.

The objective is to win. What you're seeing is teams doing what they can to achieve that goal. Since this is EVE, scruples go right out the window and you get the fight in all its glory — not some cleaned-up kayfabe version.


I truely do understand the sandbox and that is what attracted me to the game, however having said that I guess I am disapointed that a tornament can be bought. Thanks though for your insight, I do appreciate the point of view :)
Nikodiemus
Ganja Clade
Shadow Cartel
#34 - 2012-07-11 11:19:36 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
There is no such thing as a fair fight in EVE.


This is a Tournament, not a skirmish in a gate or a blob fest to get a system. I understant your point but that should not apply in this kind of events.

And you make it sound that pvp in eve is the most simple thing and we both know it's not.


Compare the mechanics of EVE PvP to a game like Supreme Commander, and then tell me its even remotely complicated.

Once you learn what each ship is capable of, which fits are likely, and how to move in order to give yourself an edge, there isn't much more depth to dig into.


Stop comparing apples to aneurysms scrub.
Tomiko Kawase
Perkone
#35 - 2012-07-11 12:38:01 UTC
Nikodiemus wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
There is no such thing as a fair fight in EVE.


This is a Tournament, not a skirmish in a gate or a blob fest to get a system. I understant your point but that should not apply in this kind of events.

And you make it sound that pvp in eve is the most simple thing and we both know it's not.


Compare the mechanics of EVE PvP to a game like Supreme Commander, and then tell me its even remotely complicated.

Once you learn what each ship is capable of, which fits are likely, and how to move in order to give yourself an edge, there isn't much more depth to dig into.


Stop comparing apples to aneurysms scrub.


The comparison is fine if you strip each down to the mechanics at play. The inherent lag in server communication (which can reach 1000ms) alone prevents a mechanically intense play. Just about the only time pure mechanical skill will be the major deciding factor in a fight is during a mirror match. We saw exactly one of those last weekend and the team that had real experience piloting the comp won out. That is to grant you that there is some semblance of a player skill requirement to fly a particular comp, but it is by no means a major deciding factor in the majority of matches.

Bombastic vintage soul with a driving groove, brass & male vocal
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#36 - 2012-07-11 12:57:03 UTC
Oh no... Backroom deals, meta gaming, and the like never take place in real life tournaments. Roll

Go look up the details on the match between Barbados and Grenada. Grow up, realize that deals and tricks happen all the time to achieve favorable results. Eve, a game know for scamming and such, should be no different.
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-07-11 13:00:31 UTC
Actually its crap if you can make deals for the win, whats the point. Actual tournament combat means nothing, no point making it a live event (although you could say that due to the poor commentary this year as well)

Shame

Tal

I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-07-11 13:04:54 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Oh no... Backroom deals, meta gaming, and the like never take place in real life tournaments. Roll

Go look up the details on the match between Barbados and Grenada. Grow up, realize that deals and tricks happen all the time to achieve favorable results. Eve, a game know for scamming and such, should be no different.



Right because ppl cheat we should just accept. f*ck no, you can bend over and take it, but some of us would like to see a fair fight. Being dark and meta gaming in EVE fair enough, doing it in a competition that ppl want to watch is bullsh*t. Just agree the win amongst yourselves, but don't advertise it as some great event........

Another turn for the worst..... sigh Sad

Tal





I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-07-11 13:09:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
The dealmaking is part of the package and part of what makes it fun.


I'm not sure fun it the word i would use, boring and predictable is just as fitting, but eve is eve and weather or not you find the meta gaming more fun then real fights is personal taste.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Gun Gal
Dark Club
#40 - 2012-07-11 13:16:02 UTC
The tournament is an embarrassment to ccp.

And those molders that support what's happening are the same crowd that's driving this game into the toilet.