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Fair Fights????
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Ayn Randy
Home For Pugs
#21 - 2012-07-10 16:55:43 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Ayn Randy wrote:
Majority of the time, the guys with the smaller numbers have better FC's and better fleet comps and gladly fight outnumbered.

Weird, because recordings of your FCs suggest the complete opposite of this.
Quote:
The guys with numbers need to learn how to cap fleets

You're working under the false assumption they want you to fight, or they want a fair fight. This is just one reason why SOCO are being faceplanted so hard Australia's hills are rising.


What are you even on about? Is that the CFCs tactic? Blob so hard that the SoCo wont fight them?

Either CFC is very good at reverse psychology or they just need to go back to school and learn how to count.
Rene Fullchest
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-07-10 17:06:36 UTC
Ayn Randy wrote:
Rene Fullchest wrote:
I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.

Whether you are a veteran of nullsec campaigns or a casual hisec miner, you know the refrain, some variation of "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?"

I've never gotten this. Yes, this is a game, but the simulation is of war, not some sports event with rules and equal numbers on teams. The simulation is of invasion and crushing one's enemy, of winners and losers, of the thrill of success and the humiliation of defeat.

I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you?


Yeah but you dont understand.

A. The guys with the huge numbers will be like "WTFOMG why wont you not fight us? Run away!! Pussys! Afraid to undock..."
B. The guys with the small numbers are like "Youve got 4 times our numbers, thats not even a fight, its just us dying"

Majority of the time, the guys with the smaller numbers have better FC's and better fleet comps and gladly fight outnumbered.

But when they form up 150 against a 300 man gang, and undock and next thing 300 more get cynoed in along with dreads/supers/titans... B happens... then A happens.

The guys with numbers need to learn how to cap fleets.


I was in agreement with you right until the end, my friend. Your analysis of what happens was pretty good but, in the end, you come right back to 'fight fair'. Why, exactly, should either side cap fleet numbers? If the huge fleet forces the smaller fleet to dock up, the strategic objectives will certainly be achieved. You have to think of a bigger picture than this one fight.

Also, your assertion that "Majority of the time, the guys with the smaller numbers have better FC's and better fleet comps and gladly fight outnumbered" is pretty much crap. The sweeping generalization of 'better FCs is almost impossible to measure. You like yours and I like mine. It's a wash.

Finally, especially with your 'A' example, taunting (psychological warfare and demoralization) are only a peripheral part of any given fight. Your 'B' example is well-done and valid. I've been in that position and wouldn't undock either.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#23 - 2012-07-10 17:14:12 UTC
AoE damage (bombs) can help but requires enough alpha to start with.

Being outnumbered usually favors guerrilla tactics (mmhm Vagabond).

You should never expect to win a fight by killing them all when outnumbered since their superior numbers will ensure most can run away if they start losing. You can, however, win the isk battle as the chances of pilot error increases with fleet size.

The counter for the blob is more psychological than physical.
Pipa Porto
#24 - 2012-07-10 17:17:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Standard EVE sayings apply:

If you're in a fair fight, you're doing it wrong.


I like Lt Col Cooper's version of the saying better:
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck"

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Rene Fullchest
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-07-10 17:38:09 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
... You can, however, win the isk battle ...


I see this as just another meaningless metric, and that is proven by your choice of the term 'battle'.

One battle does not make a war. You cannot win the 'isk war' against a superior force with (almost) unlimited isk.

Again, talking about winning by the metric of isk destroyed versus isk lost is the whinging of losers, spin designed only to fool your own pilots, because the rest of the universe knows the truth.
Rene Fullchest
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-07-10 17:38:36 UTC
Wait - how the hell did I get 43 likes????
Pipa Porto
#27 - 2012-07-10 17:39:46 UTC
Rene Fullchest wrote:
Wait - how the hell did I get 43 likes????


Someone accidentally the butan?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Daemon Ceed
Ice Fire Warriors
#28 - 2012-07-10 17:56:36 UTC
Rene Fullchest wrote:
I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.

I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you?


As I've often heard, the only unfair fight is the one you lose. In war, one cannot have the expectation of sportsmanship. The purpose and scope of war is different from that of a sports match. One is to decimate your enemy, the other is to show you have superior skill over equal odds. Whichever outcome you choose to pursue is up to you.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#29 - 2012-07-10 18:08:58 UTC
Ayn Randy wrote:
Yeah but you dont understand.

A. The guys with the huge numbers will be like "WTFOMG why wont you not fight us? Run away!! Pussys! Afraid to undock..."
B. The guys with the small numbers are like "Youve got 4 times our numbers, thats not even a fight, its just us dying"

Hi Nulli Secunda poster. We're burning your home too.

Have you met Boat? He really loves shooting structures. And people still join his fleets even though most of the time you guys dock (the fleet may or may not go to shoot some structure).


Don't worry, I'm sure -A- will be your savior, beat everyone back, take back your region, give it back to you and not even demand rent or tribute. That's a lot of ifs away, though.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#30 - 2012-07-10 18:10:52 UTC
Rene Fullchest wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
... You can, however, win the isk battle ...


I see this as just another meaningless metric, and that is proven by your choice of the term 'battle'.

One battle does not make a war. You cannot win the 'isk war' against a superior force with (almost) unlimited isk.

Again, talking about winning by the metric of isk destroyed versus isk lost is the whinging of losers, spin designed only to fool your own pilots, because the rest of the universe knows the truth.

It's not just your isk efficiency but also the ratio is isk generation. Right now, tech affects that a good bit.

But don't worry, as long as you tire us out, the fact that SoCo groups are losing pilots (the slopes !!) won't matter, I'm sure...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Signal11th
#31 - 2012-07-10 18:13:33 UTC
Rene Fullchest wrote:
Wait - how the hell did I get 43 likes????



Blimey didn't realise that FA had 44 members! You been on a recruitment drive?

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#32 - 2012-07-10 18:36:07 UTC
Ayn Randy wrote:
What are you even on about? Is that the CFCs tactic? Blob so hard that the SoCo wont fight them?

Either CFC is very good at reverse psychology or they just need to go back to school and learn how to count.

Reverse psychology? I don't think you know what that means.

They're winning, you're losing. You can cry and sob about fair fights all you want, but that won't bring Delve back.

I'll just stick this here: http://soundcloud.com/dariush_records/

and ask people whether you think those are recordings of an elite and competent force being overwhelmed, or people screaming and whining and blaming anything but themselves when they lose.

I love the irony of Nulli/AAA crying about blobbing when you gleefully celebrate every small victory you get when you outnumber the opponent.

Keep on truckin'

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#33 - 2012-07-10 18:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Ayn Randy wrote:
What are you even on about? Is that the CFCs tactic? Blob so hard that the SoCo wont fight them?

Either CFC is very good at reverse psychology or they just need to go back to school and learn how to count.

Reverse psychology? I don't think you know what that means.

They're winning, you're losing. You can cry and sob about fair fights all you want, but that won't bring Delve back.

I'll just stick this here: http://soundcloud.com/dariush_records/

and ask people whether you think those are recordings of an elite and competent force being overwhelmed, or people screaming and whining and blaming anything but themselves when they lose.

I love the irony of Nulli/AAA crying about blobbing when you gleefully celebrate every small victory you get when you outnumber the opponent.

Keep on truckin'

The truck is out of gas, and it's on fire.

And the whole forest it is lost in is also on fire.


Only you can stop forest fires.


Did they blob first, did we blob first? Meh. Who blobs more, now that's what we're looking at.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Apostate Lucius
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-07-10 20:03:12 UTC
Rene Fullchest wrote:
I have, for so long, heard the whinging about "fair fights" that I thought I'd bring the topic to GD.

Whether you are a veteran of nullsec campaigns or a casual hisec miner, you know the refrain, some variation of "ZOMG, they came with three times our numbers, why they don't 'fight fair'?"

I've never gotten this. Yes, this is a game, but the simulation is of war, not some sports event with rules and equal numbers on teams. The simulation is of invasion and crushing one's enemy, of winners and losers, of the thrill of success and the humiliation of defeat.

I say crying about fair fights is the lament of losers. What say you?


I say that mortal combat is an art lost among today's society. The gladiators of antiquity, though hardly the peers of the well-to-do in Rome, were celebrities in their own right. They lived and died by a set of rules that made such contests exciting to watch and rather horrifying to live through. War is war, but murderous combat between two men was the stuff of legends in those times.

I can understand why such things have fallen away, however.

Let Caesar never forget, though he may rule with the authority of the gods, he is allowed to rule by the whim of the people.
Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-07-10 20:05:14 UTC
From the movie "Patton":

"Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. "

To add to that, no one ever wins a war by making sure the other side has a fair fight.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#36 - 2012-07-10 20:24:30 UTC
I took a buddy of mine out to camp a gate the other day. We had 3 ships... lots of DPS, but a couple of frigs came in and a rook jammed us all. We had the DPS. We could have taken them. ...and as I sat here watching my ship sllooooowwwllly loose armor it sure felt unfair. ...but it wasn't. Shoulda fit sensor backups.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#37 - 2012-07-10 20:27:20 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
I've no problem with people not fighting fair, I just have a problem with them gloating as if they did.

When I hunt down and kill a mission runner's ship in an attempt to provoke his corp to actually defend itself in a war, I don't feel like I've accomplished a major victory. It's a means to an end. I knew the outcome before I started the fight. The same goes for a 100-man fleet smashing a 10-man gang. The same goes for people fighting on stations with more neutral support that they have combat ships. The same goes for suicide gankers. If you act only because you know the outcome will go to your favor, then all you accomplished was properly determining the lack of risk before engaging.

If you want bragging rights, do something dangerous.

edit: note that I'm referring to individual fights in these examples. A suicide ganker successfully impacting mining habits or mineral prices is playing a larger game, and doing it well. A 100 man fleet that consistently catches and destroys smaller roaming fleets might be working to secure sov. There are metagame strategies that certainly warrant bragging, no matter how you play them in combat.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
drdxie
#38 - 2012-07-10 20:33:22 UTC
LMAO... only ones whining about fair fight is CFC.. SoCo continues to engage larger numbers.. Sometimes we win.. sometimes we don't, it' s all fun... eg, we took a 60 man drake blob, yes we call a small fleet like that a blob, to 1dh which had 400 or so in local for some gorilla warfare. We engaged, got some kills, got some losses, and after our brave logi were down we managed to get the survivors out after some GF's in local... The SoCo fleet sure had fun and I am sure the CFC's did too.

Caldari Loving needed.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1608277&#post1608277
Pipa Porto
#39 - 2012-07-10 20:40:41 UTC
drdxie wrote:
gorilla warfare


Smashing suitcases, were you?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave Stark
#40 - 2012-07-10 20:46:40 UTC
nothing in life is fair, the sooner people realise this the better.