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Incursion DPS for Vanguard
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Torn Corin
Trident Protectorate
#1 - 2012-06-29 05:33:55 UTC
I have tried a few incursion Vanguard sites, with what I now know to refer to as FailFleetsSad . The fleet didn't seem terribad, went with 3 logis (all said they were lvl 4) we were all armor as well ( I know shield is preferred nowadays) 7 Dps . We didn't even clear a single site ... Lost 1 dps BS & everything went to sh**.

So, this experience makes me wonder... What is the "EFT" dps zone a vanguard fleet should be shooting for? Let's assume armor & people are using tracking links and Re SeBO like they should. I've seen recommended fits doing anything from 800-1100dps in EFT , so is that x7 (5600-7700) good ??
Kadeyoo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-06-29 05:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadeyoo
Torn Corin wrote:
I have tried a few incursion Vanguard sites, with what I now know to refer to as FailFleetsSad . The fleet didn't seem terribad, went with 3 logis (all said they were lvl 4) we were all armor as well ( I know shield is preferred nowadays) 7 Dps . We didn't even clear a single site ... Lost 1 dps BS & everything went to sh**.

So, this experience makes me wonder... What is the "EFT" dps zone a vanguard fleet should be shooting for? Let's assume armor & people are using tracking links and Re SeBO like they should. I've seen recommended fits doing anything from 800-1100dps in EFT , so is that x7 (5600-7700) good ??


First off I'm sorry that you had to experience this the hard way. Armor has died out when all the Legion fleets went away. The remaining pilots are idiots who don't know how to fit their ships properly, or how to compose their fleets. Also, the remaining logis sleep badly and don't know what they are doing. (Seeing a Vindicator with *ALL* tank mods in low and rigs just makes me cry)

In ISN we fly VGs with 2 logis comfortably, and usually we field 2-3 tank mods overall (that includes rigs) on any ship.

That allows us to boost our DPS to a maximum for optimum efficiency and best chance to win the occasional contest.

However - the EFT "DPS zone" does not apply really to VG, since it's a complicated thing. Numbers like tracking speed, engagement range, target painters, webs and general strategy all come into the play when it comes to optimal fittings.

But as a rule of thumb, battleships should get 900-1000DPS (Well, or 1500-1600 if you fly a Vindi :D). Drone bunnies, should you have no Vindicator in fleet, however can have substantially lower DPS, due to the fact that you usually have a Loki for the task, which might be able to put out 500-600 DPS at most - but that is fine. The actual fleet DPS however is hard to estimate, since tracking comes into place to screw with your fancy EFT DPS, add falloff, webs, painters and delays.

Also note that currently the optimal fleet size consists of 12 people (10 DPS + 2 Logis, or 9 DPS + 3 Logis if you want to be on the safe side and don't have spidertanking backups like we do in ISN).
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-06-29 08:21:26 UTC
Torn Corin wrote:
I have tried a few incursion Vanguard sites, with what I now know to refer to as FailFleetsSad . The fleet didn't seem terribad, went with 3 logis (all said they were lvl 4) we were all armor as well ( I know shield is preferred nowadays) 7 Dps . We didn't even clear a single site ... Lost 1 dps BS & everything went to sh**.

So, this experience makes me wonder... What is the "EFT" dps zone a vanguard fleet should be shooting for? Let's assume armor & people are using tracking links and Re SeBO like they should. I've seen recommended fits doing anything from 800-1100dps in EFT , so is that x7 (5600-7700) good ??



If you are sick of fail communitys then give us a go!


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Torn Corin
Trident Protectorate
#4 - 2012-07-05 23:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Torn Corin
I have another question for those number crunchers, I've been looking at the Nightmare and the Abaddon (both use Pulse and that's what I was trying to compare, their DPS ability) and I'm trying to see why the Nightmare has the ability to project its damage onto targets better than the Abaddon. That's all I read about in the rant comparisons for the Nightmare and the justification that they are so much better than non-pirate ships (though they do have some unarguably awesome bonuses and are well.. better all around I'm just looking at dmg right nowBlink).

They both end up with the same effective # of pulse via the Nightmare's dmg mod, so it's not the simple answer: the other one has more guns!

I believe its tracking, the Nightmare fit I set up according to a spec ended with 0.09062 and the Abaddon was 0.06238. The Nightmare ends up having 45% better tracking than the Abaddon. The spec does not have a webber but it uses a Target Painter (it’s a med slot it is probably just preference, I haven't heard any great number crunching analysis of the benefit of Webber vs. Painter) and the Abaddon has the same utility slot, so meh, that's even.

The main difference is one is Armor tank and the other Shield, plus the Nightmare is waaaay more expensive and has some more utility slots in highs but nothing improving straight damage (but maybe group survivability). Everything else in lows and mids are spent, for both configs, for the tanks.

So, in the end, is that it? .09062 = you can hit Sansha's and .06238 = you can NOT ??
Or is this simply a case of overstatement, where at .09062 = you can hit Sansha's 85% of the time, 100% of the time if they are painted/webbed and .06238 = don't even bother wasting your energy if they have a high transversal and if you web them now maybe you hit them 30% of the time ??

I'm asking because it sounds like the Armor energy weapon fleets are closed out of Vanguards almost, or more sites? If that's the ship you fly, bummer for you. I was looking to add the Nightmare to my list of ships anyways so that's what I think I'll shoot for DPS wise, but I'd be in that Abaddon a lot faster (if only I would be able to hit something). I'm already Logi V so I'll add a Basi to my list fairly quickly so I can contribute to shield fleets but, just, wow, I'm surprised Armor is so closed out.

Is this a balancing issue for PvE, is it meant to be one sided, or is it an give and take where Armor used to be king last ‘patch’?
Sturmwolke
#5 - 2012-07-06 13:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage

study the above and you'll have the answer why the Nightmare > Abaddon in terms of real/effective damage.
Typical Nightmare builds also sports 1-2 TE (in addition to 1-2 TC) which extends range + falloff, improving it's radius of effectiveness ... aka damage projection.

The painter can _roughly_ be equated to an extra tracking computer when you're trying to figure out the ballpark abilities. A web is different. A battleship (400 gun sig) needs a minimum 2x webs to reliably hit frigates sized targets (40m sig), even then it'll only be most times with a few misses - depending on the range and orbit speed. If you're running painters, don't even bother and leave the frigates to your T2/T3 cruisers in your fleet. Generally, any good fleets (whether armor/shields) will always sport heavy webs (80-100% of the dps) in VG sites, refitting them to painters (as necessary) when doing AS/HQ sites.

Armor does better at VGs due to the web advantage, but the quality of the armor fleet atm (mostly out of TDF), imo, atm is roughly around green or newbie level. There are too many bad fits popping out in the armor channel that's makes you want to just wonder if they've actually done any legwork at fittings. Armor fits are usually more difficult for beginners and that is reflected in the bad fittings (on the other hand, fitting shields is a simple matter, giving you lots of homogenous fits).

Many of the veteran armor runners either aren't running or they swapped to shields due to the numbers i.e. easier time to find fleets. Smaller pool of pilots, the atmosphere is usually more laissez-faire when you're running in armor when compared to shields - which itself is good and bad, depending on which you prefer. Shields sport a higher number of min-maxers which manifests in a number of different ways.

As for the question of "balance" armor/shield for incursion, I'd say VGs are still the domain for armor (whenever they scrounge up a proper fleet) ... AS/HQ, shields have more advantage here with their basic builds as armor now would tpyically run 2 damage mods low, even going as far as making bricks out of their ships. Regardless, there will always be armor and shield fleets, so in the end, it's a matter of choice.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#6 - 2012-07-06 21:57:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Kadeyoo wrote:
In ISN we fly VGs with 2 logis and a perfect or near-perfect siege booster comfortably,

Fixed that bit


Most of the time you'll get looked down on if you can't top 1000dps or so, unless you're in a utility ship like a loki.

The tone in "shiny" fleets, as they've come to be known, is usually something like "T2-gunned nightmare/vindi/mach, or GTFO"

thhief ghabmoef
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#7 - 2012-07-06 22:50:18 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Kadeyoo wrote:
In ISN we fly VGs with 2 logis and a perfect or near-perfect siege booster comfortably,

Fixed that bit


Most of the time you'll get looked down on if you can't top 1000dps or so, unless you're in a utility ship like a loki.

The tone in "shiny" fleets, as they've come to be known, is usually something like "T2-gunned nightmare/vindi/mach, or GTFO"



"T2-gunned nightmare/vindi/mach, or Bhaal ( 4x Tachyon ) , Navy Mega ( T2 rails ) , Vargur , Navy Apoc ( 8x Tachyon ) , Maelstrom ( T2 8 x 1400's ) MWD Lokis x 3 webs , MWD/ AB Basis 5/1 T2 . , Lvl 5 gunnery support skills and 20 days 'till T2 with faction guns or T2 guns with some lvl 4 support skills .... or GTFO"
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-07-09 22:28:42 UTC
Kodavor wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Kadeyoo wrote:
In ISN we fly VGs with 2 logis and a perfect or near-perfect siege booster comfortably,

Fixed that bit


Most of the time you'll get looked down on if you can't top 1000dps or so, unless you're in a utility ship like a loki.

The tone in "shiny" fleets, as they've come to be known, is usually something like "T2-gunned nightmare/vindi/mach, or GTFO"



"T2-gunned nightmare/vindi/mach, or Bhaal ( 4x Tachyon ) , Navy Mega ( T2 rails ) , Vargur , Navy Apoc ( 8x Tachyon ) , Maelstrom ( T2 8 x 1400's ) MWD Lokis x 3 webs , MWD/ AB Basis 5/1 T2 . , Lvl 5 gunnery support skills and 20 days 'till T2 with faction guns or T2 guns with some lvl 4 support skills .... or GTFO"



Dam look at that shine!

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear