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Fixing Tech

Author
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#61 - 2012-07-09 15:06:38 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
dexington wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Oh please, everyone and their dog can see the balance/bottleneck issues with tech/moons in general. It's an area CCP are extremely slow to move on.


I recently watched last years alliance tournament, and one of the devs being interviewed talks about the technetium bottleneck problem, and how the design of reactions makes it hard to change. It sounded like they were looking at a change the involved changing the reaction tree, which sounds like one way to change the value of technetium while keeping the price on T2 items stable.

There are essentially two things they can do to "quickly fix" the tech bottleneck.

1) Rebalance the moongoo consumption in T2 components
2) Add alchemy to every tier of moongoo.

I think that if they'd redone the 1) option back to what it was before tech became the major bottleneck, it'd still be an improvement, because while the neo/dyspro moons were valuable, they weren't limited to the northern areas.

And it's not like the south is fully worthless either, despite what they'll have you think.

Sounds good. So what is CCPs deal??? Why years to make a much needed change?! (it has been like two or three right? I forget)


I imagine because they want to have something better than putting up a tower next to a moon and harvesting the goo from it. They've mentioned countless times that they want to put moon goo collection into the hands of the average player instead of at the alliance level. (Talking about ring mining here)

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]

Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-07-09 15:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Elzon1
I don't why people can't do their research. CCP Soundwave has stated that they are doing moon alchemy for ALL moon tiers (including R32). This should help with the bottleneck problem and allow the tech2 markets to become oversupplied. If not then others things will have to be done on top of that so it can become oversupplied. I'm not saying the tech2 market NEEDS to be oversupplied, just that the capability needs to be there as it currently isn't.

The quote I am referencing:

CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

In the meantime, I'd really just like to alchemy every single tier of moons (like it was done with 64s).


CCP Soundwave quote
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#63 - 2012-07-09 15:35:40 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
I don't why people can't do their research

You do realise you are posting in GD, right?
Isonda
suspended animations DOT
#64 - 2012-07-09 15:37:03 UTC
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Add a special probe that can reduce moon mining efficiency by, say, 50% for X period of time. This bomb could be fired by probe launchers and used to disrupt moon mining by making the moon's output lower.


First of all, this is breaking Tech even more.

Second: this is a buff to large alliances and the Meta Game. I have no doubt that a mechanic like this, making it possible to kill moon income on a roam, would be great.

Please, CCP, do this. It will be great and increase the price of Moon Goo.
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-07-09 15:40:19 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
You do realise you are posting in GD, right?


You have a point there. Ugh
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2012-07-09 15:53:55 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
I don't why people can't do their research. CCP Soundwave has stated that they are doing moon alchemy for ALL moon tiers (including R32). This should help with the bottleneck problem and allow the tech2 markets to become oversupplied. If not then others things will have to be done on top of that so it can become oversupplied. I'm not saying the tech2 market NEEDS to be oversupplied, just that the capability needs to be there as it currently isn't.

The quote I am referencing:

CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

In the meantime, I'd really just like to alchemy every single tier of moons (like it was done with 64s).


CCP Soundwave quote

Nothing wrong with adding Alchemy in the meantime. Such a mechanic is also easy to do for all moon goo considering it is already written.

The burning question is: Why are they making the decision not to? As in years deciding not to. What is the motivation?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-07-09 16:19:34 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:
I don't why people can't do their research. CCP Soundwave has stated that they are doing moon alchemy for ALL moon tiers (including R32). This should help with the bottleneck problem and allow the tech2 markets to become oversupplied. If not then others things will have to be done on top of that so it can become oversupplied. I'm not saying the tech2 market NEEDS to be oversupplied, just that the capability needs to be there as it currently isn't.

The quote I am referencing:

CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

In the meantime, I'd really just like to alchemy every single tier of moons (like it was done with 64s).


CCP Soundwave quote

That's saying he'd like to do these things, not that they will be done.

Never, ever, assume CCP are going to do something until you see it on Sisi/TQ.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-07-09 16:22:35 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Nothing wrong with adding Alchemy in the meantime. Such a mechanic is also easy to do for all moon goo considering it is already written.

The burning question is: Why are they making the decision not to? As in years deciding not to. What is the motivation?

God knows.

Another burning question is: Why did CCP make the changes when the entire MD forum told CCP what they were going to end up doing? Was it a buff to the NC? It certainly wasn't to help goons, in fact the change made our moons **** more or less overnight.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

SetrakDark
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-07-09 16:42:37 UTC
Nullsec players have shown that they'll generate content despite absolutely borked game mechanics, so CCP knows they can work on **** like tech and sov last, especially when they did an enormous nullsec focused expansion already (dominion).

Again, most of this is just hisec babbies crying over ship prices, which have more to do with the drone poo nerf than the tech bottleneck. Nullsec players have been asking for a tech fix for almost two years; we've trundled on anyway, and will continue to do so until CCP gets around to it.

I personally think the UI was a big waste of time, but spending the resources on hisec dec mechanics and lowsec FW was a much better choice than a t2 mat fix imo.
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-07-09 17:40:32 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Nothing wrong with adding Alchemy in the meantime. Such a mechanic is also easy to do for all moon goo considering it is already written.

The burning question is: Why are they making the decision not to? As in years deciding not to. What is the motivation?


Indeed, it has been a problem for quite some time but there hasn't been enough "pressure" to cause enough concern to change things.

A few things have changed:

Most of the old stockpiles of technetium dried up a little while back. Therefore, the tech moons are the only supply currently which brings out the full effect of the bottleneck.

A coalition of alliances took the time to gobble up a large proportion of the tech moon supply. The income from which has caused the coagulation of nullsec into mostly OTEC vs almost everyone not in OTEC. Due to this coagulation of forces pvp has been refined down to mostly blobs and grinding both of which are dull and fairly boring in a strategic and variety sense.

The centralization of technetium supply has also taken a toll on highsec as well as all players who use tech2 ships or components.

There is also the additional pressure of the CSM whom have been pushing for a fix to the technetium bottleneck "ASAP".

It's not that the goons caused this situation really, it was inevitably going to occur one way or another.
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-07-09 18:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Elzon1
Lord Zim wrote:
That's saying he'd like to do these things, not that they will be done.

Never, ever, assume CCP are going to do something until you see it on Sisi/TQ.


You have to remember what was said in the past compared to what was recently said to get the true realization of what has occurred.

When the technetium bottleneck was about to occur it was pointed out by the player base (Akita T and others) what was going to inevitably occur.

After dominion a suggestion was made during fanfest that a new type of mining be added to the functionality of the I-HUB. This was the idea of comets and their "ejaculates". Twisted

After the initial comet suggestion there came the idea of ring mining around planets for moon goo.

While these various ideas were being floated about in CCP various individuals in the playerbase continued to push the simpler solution of simply adding R32 alchemy. This suggestion was generally repeated again and again.

However, what was said to be inevitable way back before the technetium bottleneck finally occurred.

The old stockpiles ran dry. The tech moons were mostly snatched up by a large coalition. All of this resulted in the coagulation of nullsec (OTEC vs non-OTEC) and took away one of CCP's best selling points of the game, varied large scale pvp. With the coagulation of pvp methods (blobbing and grinding) nullsec becomes a dull and predictable/repetitive part of the game.

All of this combined with the pressure from the CSM to fix the tech bottleneck "ASAP" has caused the fundamental realization that the problem needs to be fixed quickly and simply. Of course, the quickest and easiest method of solving the problem was what the few people who saw the problem before it started have been suggesting... R32 alchemy.

However, CCP Soundwave (lead game designer) has said he intends to do alchemy for ALL the moon tiers, not just R32. There may also be the possibility that the he may suggest that all the tiers be connected through alchemy, but that would be putting words in his mouth. This change in mood from CCP Soundwave suggests that the problem is now in the process of being fixed and that he wants to make sure it is solved for now and for the foreseeable future seeing as he wants all the moon tiers using alchemy not just R64 and R32 (good thinking on the part of CCP Soundwave).
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-07-09 18:25:32 UTC
Again, he has said he'd like to do alchemy for all moon tiers, he hasn't said it will be done. There's a huge difference there.

Stop shooting the hen before it's laid its eggs, it doesn't work.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-07-09 18:37:08 UTC
It must have hurt when you were told that your alliance couldn't afford reimbursing your ship losses during the war, and that you're required to find ways to make money in order to fly those manditory ops.

Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-07-09 18:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Elzon1
Lord Zim wrote:
Again, he has said he'd like to do alchemy for all moon tiers, he hasn't said it will be done. There's a huge difference there.

Stop shooting the hen before it's laid its eggs, it doesn't work.


Indeed, and I'm basically pointing out that his tone has changed significantly.

He has gone from suggesting some feature for the distant future to suddenly settling for the quickest and easiest solution.

He even went further than that and extended the fix to all moon tiers allowing for EVE to be "future proofed", preventing this from being a problem again for quite some time.

It just seems apparent to me that things have finally gotten serious seeing CCP Soundwave switch like that. I'm pretty sure they have already begun going through the internal process of creating the solution to the problem at CCP.

Probably a month after the release of the CSM summit meeting minutes we will see a dev blog about the upcoming alchemy change to all the moon tiers. Well, at least I would hope it would happen that quickly. Smile
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-07-09 20:27:57 UTC
adam smash wrote:
CCP has been caught many times helping one alliance (t2 BPO's ftw).


Once. One time does not equal many times, unless you have some sort of proof.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Pipa Porto
#76 - 2012-07-09 20:30:49 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
adam smash wrote:
CCP has been caught many times helping one alliance (t2 BPO's ftw).


Once. One time does not equal many times, unless you have some sort of proof.


Also, unless there's some evidence otherwise, they fixed that by banning some people and deleting the BPOs.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-07-09 20:43:45 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
adam smash wrote:
CCP has been caught many times helping one alliance (t2 BPO's ftw).


Once. One time does not equal many times, unless you have some sort of proof.


Also, unless there's some evidence otherwise, they fixed that by banning some people and deleting the BPOs.


All it takes is a 3-digit search in Google to find the information on it. It's actually quite a good read & very informative.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Pipa Porto
#78 - 2012-07-09 21:18:17 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
adam smash wrote:
CCP has been caught many times helping one alliance (t2 BPO's ftw).


Once. One time does not equal many times, unless you have some sort of proof.


Also, unless there's some evidence otherwise, they fixed that by banning some people and deleting the BPOs.


All it takes is a 3-digit search in Google to find the information on it. It's actually quite a good read & very informative.


Another good one to read is the details of the old Moon Goo duping exploit that ran for what, 3 years?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-07-09 21:49:23 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Never, ever, assume CCP are going to do something until you see it on Sisi/TQ.


And even if you see it on Sisi, don't assume that it will make it to TQ.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Cass Lie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-07-09 22:24:11 UTC
So, the proposed fix to technetium bottleneck is making moon mining yield lower, thus... making it an even bigger bottleneck. I don't even... (Hint: If you cut supply by half and demand stays the same, you will not cut profits by half.)

(And yes, quick alchemy fix is needed. Badly. Fix it now, implement the proper advanced mechanics later.)