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T2 Ammo. vs T2 Missiles
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Saile Litestrider
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-07-08 22:08:18 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Way to not read the topic before posting.

Way to miss the point (missiles and turrets are completely different weapon systems and you can't base one off the other until a number of radical changes are made)

Speaking of which, where are my tracking disruptor scripts that affect your warheads giving you a worse missile radius/velocity?
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-07-08 22:12:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Cambarus wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
*sigh* Roll

It is the penalties they apply to your ship that are unfair, not the penalties on the missiles themselves. I can totally understand the penalty to hit smaller targets when faced with an increase in raw damage potential. That is fine - but - the reduction in max velocity/increase in signature radius makes no sense and is totally imbalanced.

Torps have blaster DPS at pulse ranges with better damage type selection than ACs. I'll concede that one of their drawbacks needs to go if you'll admit that one of their advantages needs to go as well.



This post is just /facedesk.

If you're gonna be like that, how about making missiles take up the same space as turret ammo? Roll

Saile Litestrider wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Way to not read the topic before posting.

Way to miss the point (missiles and turrets are completely different weapon systems and you can't base one off the other until a number of radical changes are made)

Speaking of which, where are my tracking disruptor scripts that affect your warheads giving you a worse missile radius/velocity?


Your point is still totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. None of which you said relates to the stupid ship penalties on these missiles.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#23 - 2012-07-08 22:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
*sigh* Roll

It is the penalties they apply to your ship that are unfair, not the penalties on the missiles themselves. I can totally understand the penalty to hit smaller targets when faced with an increase in raw damage potential. That is fine - but - the reduction in max velocity/increase in signature radius makes no sense and is totally imbalanced.

Torps have blaster DPS at pulse ranges with better damage type selection than ACs. I'll concede that one of their drawbacks needs to go if you'll admit that one of their advantages needs to go as well.



This post is just /facedesk.

If you're gonna be like that, how about making missiles take up the same space as turret ammo? Roll

Sure, just as soon as missile boats start needing all that room for cap boosters to make sure their launchers keep firing.

As for me being "like that", you do realize that that's what you're doing right? Missiles are not broken or underpowered, you just don't like the drawbacks that come with their advantages, IE you don't like MISSILES. If you don't like their design philosophy, just don't use them? They need the drawbacks to compensate for their huuuuuge advantages, and you really can't take away from one if you're not going to take away from the other (or have you not noticed that nobody here seems to be agreeing with you?)
Tor Gungnir wrote:

Saile Litestrider wrote:

Way to miss the point (missiles and turrets are completely different weapon systems and you can't base one off the other until a number of radical changes are made)

Speaking of which, where are my tracking disruptor scripts that affect your warheads giving you a worse missile radius/velocity?


Your point is still totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. None of which you said relates to the stupid ship penalties on these missiles.
His point is 100% relevant. You think that the drawbacks of missiles are too severe, and he's pointing out that missiles have advantages that are just as massive.
Saile Litestrider
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-07-08 22:31:27 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Your point is still totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. None of which you said relates to the stupid ship penalties on these missiles.

Let me make one more attempt to spell it out for you.

You're asking for a removal of the ship penalties related to T2 missiles. Your justification for the removal of said penalties is that "There is no penalty on T2 Turret ammo." which "Hardly seems fair."

There are so many other vast differences between missiles and turrets that this argument makes approximately as much sense as saying "supercapitals are immune to ewar, therefore I think T2 BPOs should be seeded again. It only seems fair."

You can argue the penalty on its own merit, but you can't base it on a simplistic comparison with turrets when turrets have such a huge list of differences from missiles.

Speaking of which, when are they going to remove missile travel time? Totally sucks.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-07-08 23:20:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Yeah because surely a comparison of two weapon systems is as crazy as comparing ships to BPO. Roll

The fact that you compare it to travel time just means you're either an idiot or a troll.

Go troll somewhere else.

The discussion is totally valid because Turret ammo used to also carry penalties to your ship.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#26 - 2012-07-08 23:57:20 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Yeah because surely a comparison of two weapon systems is as crazy as comparing ships to BPO. Roll

The fact that you compare it to travel time just means you're either an idiot or a troll.

Go troll somewhere else.

The discussion is totally valid because Turret ammo used to also carry penalties to your ship.

And cruise missile sensor damp ravens used to be overpowered. What's your point? What used to be is irrelevant, it's what IS that matters. As it stands, missiles, and the ships that use them, are in no need of having their drawbacks removed.

It's also worth noting that even now, t2 close range ammo offers very little advantage over its faction counterpart, and prior to the changes made to those types of ammo the faction variant was basically better in every single way to the t2 equivalent, which was never a problem for torps as the damage difference between faction and t2 has always been pretty reasonable. T2 charges needed a buff, t2 torps did not.

If I were to sum up why everyone here is against you, and why you're flat out wrong, it would be like this:

The question: Is it unfair to have more drawbacks on torps than on other weapons?
The answer: No, because they also get more advantages than other weapons.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#27 - 2012-07-09 03:45:09 UTC
So much stupid in this thread, I feel dumber for having read it.

There are three issues here:
1. Missiles still have ship based penalties on their T2 ammo, which were removed from turret ammo.
2. Torps and Cruise Missiles are crap. Utterly rubbish.
3. Heavy Missiles make turret users QQ.
Gorinia Sanford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-07-09 04:05:33 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
So I've been mainly using Projectile Turrets on my Minmatar ships but I recently acquired a Typhoon so I was looking over the whole Missile weapon system.

What's with the rather severe penalties applied to T2 Missiles? There is no penalty on T2 Turret ammo. Hardly seems fair.


Some cheese with that whine?
Red zeon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-07-09 04:24:10 UTC
i do agree that t2 torps are somewhat too harsly punished
rage torps have 250 signature radius more than t1 (650m radius)
and javelins decrease your ship speed drasticly, wich i dont see how its tied to ships propulsion system :P
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-07-09 08:19:35 UTC
I believe CCP is working on it, or at least the said they where.

Meanwhile do what most missiles pilots do, use faction ammo.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-07-09 09:04:24 UTC
Paikis wrote:
So much stupid in this thread, I feel dumber for having read it.

There are three issues here:
1. Missiles still have ship based penalties on their T2 ammo, which were removed from turret ammo.
2. Torps and Cruise Missiles are crap. Utterly rubbish.
3. Heavy Missiles make turret users QQ.



Capping out isn't a ship based penalty?

And for battleship turrets the tracking penalty sucks.....try hitting a drake 1400s or 425s under 35km if you aren't nose to nose with then (or have them chasing).
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-07-09 11:56:17 UTC
Paikis wrote:
So much stupid in this thread, I feel dumber for having read it.

There are three issues here:
1. Missiles still have ship based penalties on their T2 ammo, which were removed from turret ammo.
2. Torps and Cruise Missiles are crap. Utterly rubbish.
3. Heavy Missiles make turret users QQ.



Finally someone with a brain.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#33 - 2012-07-09 12:27:23 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Capping out isn't a ship based penalty?

And for battleship turrets the tracking penalty sucks.....try hitting a drake 1400s or 425s under 35km if you aren't nose to nose with then (or have them chasing).


Yes, the tracking penalty sucks. So does the massive signiture radius and explosion velocity issues with torps/cruises. It is effectively the same penalty. Gun ammo used to slow your ship or make your sig radius larger as well. That penalty was removed.

Try hitting a frigate with autocannons at 20kms. You might miss, but if you hit him, you might one-shot him. Try hitting that same frigate with torps. You might scratch his shields... maybe.

The weapon systems are different, but one of them has additional penalties, that were removed from the other one. All the OP is asking for is the same penalties to be removed from missiles. They will still have issues with sig radius and explosion velocity.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#34 - 2012-07-09 12:31:42 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Long story short, some T2 gun ammunition also used to have substantial penalties. Now it doesn't. Missiles still do, but it's honestly not all that crippling.


The velocity penalty makes my 'Phoon cry....


You're using rage torps against a non-webbed target. There's your problem. Go faction and never look back.
Psikoa
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-07-09 13:02:21 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Long story short, some T2 gun ammunition also used to have substantial penalties. Now it doesn't. Missiles still do, but it's honestly not all that crippling.


The velocity penalty makes my 'Phoon cry....


You're using rage torps against a non-webbed target. There's your problem. Go faction and never look back.


Pretty much this.

It's not even that they don't work, they just need more support. T2 missile drawback suck. So no one uses them...across the board.

However, you can't look at Hmls and say missiles are broken its plain no true.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#36 - 2012-07-09 15:53:10 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Paikis wrote:
So much stupid in this thread, I feel dumber for having read it.

There are three issues here:
1. Missiles still have ship based penalties on their T2 ammo, which were removed from turret ammo.
2. Torps and Cruise Missiles are crap. Utterly rubbish.
3. Heavy Missiles make turret users QQ.



Finally someone who agrees with me.

Fixed that for you.

Cruise missiles are crap for pvp, torps are most certainly not, though as someone in RvB I could understand why you'd think they are (hint: torps are not meant to be used on small ships)
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-07-09 15:56:30 UTC
Welp, I can't wait for Drake changes and use T2/faction ammo with while I wouldn't say I'm in hurry to undock with a Brutix be it blaster or worst, rails.

Missiles are fecking awesome once you've got top skills, you can choose to hit the target weakest resist profile and so apply top dmg, try it with rails or lasers, it's absolutely not the same thing at all.

Lol even in pve the only pve bastard that can directly compete with Faction fitted Tengus is a huge Faction fitted Machariel in every kind of site/rats
Cruise Ravens can directly compete with 1200's arty with no problem, use faction ammo and you just get an alpha/dps monster, fit Torps on it and get tackle/TP's on your targets (larger than 50m radius can help heh) and you can almost 3 or 4 shot most BC's running their MWD (800 to 3km radius).

If something missiles are really not bad, underpowered or having heavy drawbacks witch means they're quite balanced (I still think heavies have a little bit too much flight time but it's just me)

brb
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-07-09 18:21:20 UTC
I never said that missiles are bad.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-07-09 18:37:47 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Welp, I can't wait for Drake changes and use T2/faction ammo with while I wouldn't say I'm in hurry to undock with a Brutix be it blaster or worst, rails.

Missiles are fecking awesome once you've got top skills, you can choose to hit the target weakest resist profile and so apply top dmg, try it with rails or lasers, it's absolutely not the same thing at all.

Lol even in pve the only pve bastard that can directly compete with Faction fitted Tengus is a huge Faction fitted Machariel in every kind of site/rats
Cruise Ravens can directly compete with 1200's arty with no problem, use faction ammo and you just get an alpha/dps monster, fit Torps on it and get tackle/TP's on your targets (larger than 50m radius can help heh) and you can almost 3 or 4 shot most BC's running their MWD (800 to 3km radius).

If something missiles are really not bad, underpowered or having heavy drawbacks witch means they're quite balanced (I still think heavies have a little bit too much flight time but it's just me)


That must explain all those cruise missile Ravens I've been seeing in Pvp Roll
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-07-09 18:45:47 UTC
Zyress wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Welp, I can't wait for Drake changes and use T2/faction ammo with while I wouldn't say I'm in hurry to undock with a Brutix be it blaster or worst, rails.

Missiles are fecking awesome once you've got top skills, you can choose to hit the target weakest resist profile and so apply top dmg, try it with rails or lasers, it's absolutely not the same thing at all.

Lol even in pve the only pve bastard that can directly compete with Faction fitted Tengus is a huge Faction fitted Machariel in every kind of site/rats
Cruise Ravens can directly compete with 1200's arty with no problem, use faction ammo and you just get an alpha/dps monster, fit Torps on it and get tackle/TP's on your targets (larger than 50m radius can help heh) and you can almost 3 or 4 shot most BC's running their MWD (800 to 3km radius).

If something missiles are really not bad, underpowered or having heavy drawbacks witch means they're quite balanced (I still think heavies have a little bit too much flight time but it's just me)


That must explain all those cruise missile Ravens I've been seeing in Pvp Roll



You should know by now the problem there is not the Cruise missiles themselves but the ship. You need a well thought gang to make those work, this means TP's on targets by frigates and have decent logistic pilots because this ship is just a slow moving brick with small tank witch doesn't makes it desirable for anything else than structure shooting.
However if you ever find some group with one of those and they know what they're doing you're going to feel the pain FTL.

Ask that to the guy who got a 75 billion officer fitted Battleship (think I've rarely seen such heavy tank battleship), what does he think of the sight of 20 Ravens targeting your ship and blow it before concord show up ;)
They're not bad, but for current pvp they don't really fit but doesn't mean you can't succeed with.

brb