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Grats CCP, No armsrace will every be possible vs current tech holders
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#101 - 2012-07-08 18:36:55 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
TL;DR

Goons and pals control all the tech, and I can't be arsed to do anything about it.

Want that tech? take it, just like they did. :effort: :teamwork: Evil


i think the point the op was trying to make is that they've had it that long they're too well resourced/dug in/whatever.

which just makes me wonder why nobody tried to do any thing sooner?


Always keep in mind it is a game, if this were RL and it was oil, sure there would be war.

But it is a computer game and at the extreme ends people expect game mechanics to place limits on extremes.

Usually the difficulty curve increases radically at the top, but in EvE it actually levels off until difficulty and risk are actually reduced.

Even a sandbox has borders to keep the sand inside...
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-07-08 18:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Cameron Cahill wrote:

How was Raiden. an inside job? and if you don't care about space why do you hold it? why were you planning to take fountain and cr if you 'dont want space'?


Raiden lost all of their SOV short of a few stations and like 2 systems when a founding corp took the rental income, and swapped SOV from rental holding corp to Rolling Thunder and bagged ass.


There was no military conquering there either, a bit of sadistic opportunism, but that's eve.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-07-08 18:38:52 UTC
Pardon this comparison a bit as it may be slightly offensive to some but...

I see any good and active corp/alliance as a cancer: it keeps growing and growing if it's not challenged or kept in check. Only way to reduce it is to fight it head on. If it's grown as big and fat as Goon and allies then yeah, no one to blame but the passive onlookers.

Want to beat goons and take their space/moons/whatever? Start gritting away, isk by isk. They may brag their asses off about having unlimited funding, but that statement is not entirely true. Yeah, they may have funding beyond comprehension, but hey, that's the long road that you passive folks created yourselves. So start walking it.
Sure, the current mechanics may be far from ideal, and whilst I at least won't deny the hard work that must have been put into creating such a huge alliance, I also think that some aspects are too far on the "easy" road when it comes to managing such huge groups/controlling so much space.

As for the resources, I've said it before that the way resources work and are spread in the universe really could use a revamp. Again, that's just another one ingredient out of many which makes the nice cake that is called "unwillingness to venture to null-sec".

The way I see it, if CCP is capable of making a better cake that can improve traffic to null-sec, maybe then more people would eventually begin that long walk on that Goonie road.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-07-08 18:40:08 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Pardon this comparison a bit as it may be slightly offensive to some but...

I see any good and active corp/alliance as a cancer: it keeps growing and growing if it's not challenged or kept in check. Only way to reduce it is to fight it head on. If it's grown as big and fat as Goon and allies then yeah, no one to blame but the passive onlookers.

Want to beat goons and take their space/moons/whatever? Start gritting away, isk by isk. They may brag their asses off about having unlimited funding, but that statement is not entirely true. Yeah, they may have funding beyond comprehension, but hey, that's the long road that you passive folks created yourselves. So start walking it.
Sure, the current mechanics may be far from ideal, and whilst I at least won't deny the hard work that must have been put into creating such a huge alliance, I also think that some aspects are too far on the "easy" road when it comes to managing such huge groups/controlling so much space.

As for the resources, I've said it before that the way resources work and are spread in the universe really could use a revamp. Again, that's just another one ingredient out of many which makes the nice cake that is called "unwillingness to venture to null-sec".

The way I see it, if CCP is capable of making a better cake that can improve traffic to null-sec, maybe then more people would eventually begin that long walk on that Goonie road.



Very Zen, but ineffective in the long run.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#105 - 2012-07-08 18:42:34 UTC
forestwho wrote:
Exellent Alliance Recruitment
-Those allainces can take in more and better corps due promising them isk every month. Why shouldnt join an allaince that reimburse all your losses freely, hands out free supers and payes you 10-20b a month for just being there...

Posting to confirm that goons pay their members 20b a month and throw super capitals at them.

Most goons systems just have super capitals laying around unmanned, so any of their members can jump in and belt rat if they feel like it. You can find those supers by following the trail of jet cans full of technetium.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2012-07-08 18:44:39 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Pardon this comparison a bit as it may be slightly offensive to some but...

I see any good and active corp/alliance as a cancer: it keeps growing and growing if it's not challenged or kept in check. Only way to reduce it is to fight it head on. If it's grown as big and fat as Goon and allies then yeah, no one to blame but the passive onlookers.

Want to beat goons and take their space/moons/whatever? Start gritting away, isk by isk. They may brag their asses off about having unlimited funding, but that statement is not entirely true. Yeah, they may have funding beyond comprehension, but hey, that's the long road that you passive folks created yourselves. So start walking it.
Sure, the current mechanics may be far from ideal, and whilst I at least won't deny the hard work that must have been put into creating such a huge alliance, I also think that some aspects are too far on the "easy" road when it comes to managing such huge groups/controlling so much space.

As for the resources, I've said it before that the way resources work and are spread in the universe really could use a revamp. Again, that's just another one ingredient out of many which makes the nice cake that is called "unwillingness to venture to null-sec".

The way I see it, if CCP is capable of making a better cake that can improve traffic to null-sec, maybe then more people would eventually begin that long walk on that Goonie road.



Very Zen, but ineffective in the long run.


Ineffectiveness is just another word for lack of determination in EVE as far as I can tell. And here I thought that this game was supposed to be a sandbox where player determination can achieve anything through hard work. Like Goonies.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2012-07-08 18:47:43 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:

Ineffectiveness is just another word for lack of determination in EVE as far as I can tell. And here I thought that this game was supposed to be a sandbox where player determination can achieve anything through hard work. Like Goonies.


Number account for a lot.

They have numbers at least.
Cameron Cahill
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#108 - 2012-07-08 18:50:29 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Cameron Cahill wrote:

How was Raiden. an inside job? and if you don't care about space why do you hold it? why were you planning to take fountain and cr if you 'dont want space'?


Raiden lost all of their SOV short of a few stations and like 2 systems when a founding corp took the rental income, and swapped SOV from rental holding corp to Rolling Thunder and bagged ass.


There was no military conquering there either, a bit of sadistic opportunism, but that's eve.


Yes, AFTER they lost tenal, and you didn't answer my other question.
William Nimitz
Doomheim
#109 - 2012-07-08 18:53:30 UTC
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Teala/052012/23055_BOB-20-Did-employees-of-CCP-show-favoritism-to-a-Corporation-again

Is it any wonder that the CFC controls such a vast portion of northern nullspace? Ugh

It is a symptom of madness that thoughts become uncontrollably disjointed. This can be encouraged.
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#110 - 2012-07-08 18:57:47 UTC
I hear we also got CCP to break bombs to win this war.
Cameron Cahill
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#111 - 2012-07-08 19:00:31 UTC
William Nimitz wrote:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Teala/052012/23055_BOB-20-Did-employees-of-CCP-show-favoritism-to-a-Corporation-again

Is it any wonder that the CFC controls such a vast portion of northern nullspace? Ugh


You really think if we owned CCP we'd get them to intervene in a wardec? No free T2 bpos? No free titans? That and it involves a 10 minute petition response it would have been a nice troll but that makes it unbelievable.

3/10
Martil
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-07-08 19:03:04 UTC
CCP gave me a free hotdog once
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#113 - 2012-07-08 19:05:48 UTC
Martil wrote:
CCP gave me a free hotdog once
Me too. Fancy that.

…well, for large values of “free”.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#114 - 2012-07-08 19:08:21 UTC
Cameron Cahill wrote:
William Nimitz wrote:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Teala/052012/23055_BOB-20-Did-employees-of-CCP-show-favoritism-to-a-Corporation-again

Is it any wonder that the CFC controls such a vast portion of northern nullspace? Ugh


You really think if we owned CCP we'd get them to intervene in a wardec? No free T2 bpos? No free titans? That and it involves a 10 minute petition response it would have been a nice troll but that makes it unbelievable.

3/10

It still makes me laugh when high sec players think they have any kind of detrimental effect on large null sec alliances, when those alliances all use neutral haulers for transporting goods through high sec.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Captain Fandango
The Wayward Sons
#115 - 2012-07-08 19:11:51 UTC
Time Funnel wrote:
forestwho wrote:

This is an armsrace that will effects eve for a long long time. Due poor game desighn and repeatable negection of serious issues like this i come to the conclusion that you have learned nothing so far CCP. The only way to fix this a little bit is insta removing tech from tech moons and NPC seed it at current prices untill ringmining is introduced. The excess isk gained should be removed to a level thats acceptable, something thats upto you to decide. The biggest reson for this to do it now is due ISK stocking. When the amount of isk that an allaice gains is soo high that they can save up 500 billion isk a month, something must be serious wrong. When an alliance has over 10 Trillion in savings and gaining another 500 billion a month something is not right.... Expecialy when it is publicly known that CCP employees have high ranks in that allaince. A serious Public Image Threat for you marketing department and your customer base.


I agreed with you up until you offered your solution. The correct solution in a sandbox game is to change the rules of the sandbox not to artificially inject things into the market for reasons of "stability" or "fairness". For the entire life of EVE there have been massive imbalances in the game mechanics. Perhaps the game mechanics can be balanced and iterated on in a way that makes things better and does not create another super imbalance like Tech did. The fact that Tech has not been balanced in 4? years simply blows my mind.


BETTER? Better in what way? why are massive imbalances a bad thing? I'm no goon fan boy, i don't think the cfc are anywhere near cool enough to run a tech empire, I'd far rather a group of suave brittish space pirates ran eve but that dosen't mean that the CFC having a monoploy is a bad thing....

Look this is eve, it's supposed to be a visceral, real world, why on earth would it be better if anyone and everyone could compete on an equal footing, build and sell whatever they like and make a profit? Why shouldn't some corps, some empires, take over certain markets, buy out the competition, control some resources? This is what we, the player base, are buying into, the kind of game where realistic market control are a possibility, the kind of game that encourages emergent gameplay.

It's a tired old catchphrase but it's something that holds true for me. I'd quit in an instant if ccp started manufacturing rules that ensured lazy lone pilots without the comitment to forge a giant solar empire could vie with huge corperations for their slice of the market. What should happen in a sandbox game, as in real life, is nothing, until a group of players more determined, and more resourceful, come along and tipploe the goons tech empire. THAT, and only that, is the only acceptable solution in a sandbox, anything else would be artificialy imposed and at the expense of our freedom as a playerbase.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#116 - 2012-07-08 19:39:01 UTC
Captain Fandango wrote:
Time Funnel wrote:
forestwho wrote:

This is an armsrace that will effects eve for a long long time. Due poor game desighn and repeatable negection of serious issues like this i come to the conclusion that you have learned nothing so far CCP. The only way to fix this a little bit is insta removing tech from tech moons and NPC seed it at current prices untill ringmining is introduced. The excess isk gained should be removed to a level thats acceptable, something thats upto you to decide. The biggest reson for this to do it now is due ISK stocking. When the amount of isk that an allaice gains is soo high that they can save up 500 billion isk a month, something must be serious wrong. When an alliance has over 10 Trillion in savings and gaining another 500 billion a month something is not right.... Expecialy when it is publicly known that CCP employees have high ranks in that allaince. A serious Public Image Threat for you marketing department and your customer base.


I agreed with you up until you offered your solution. The correct solution in a sandbox game is to change the rules of the sandbox not to artificially inject things into the market for reasons of "stability" or "fairness". For the entire life of EVE there have been massive imbalances in the game mechanics. Perhaps the game mechanics can be balanced and iterated on in a way that makes things better and does not create another super imbalance like Tech did. The fact that Tech has not been balanced in 4? years simply blows my mind.


BETTER? Better in what way? why are massive imbalances a bad thing? I'm no goon fan boy, i don't think the cfc are anywhere near cool enough to run a tech empire, I'd far rather a group of suave brittish space pirates ran eve but that dosen't mean that the CFC having a monoploy is a bad thing....

Look this is eve, it's supposed to be a visceral, real world, why on earth would it be better if anyone and everyone could compete on an equal footing, build and sell whatever they like and make a profit? Why shouldn't some corps, some empires, take over certain markets, buy out the competition, control some resources? This is what we, the player base, are buying into, the kind of game where realistic market control are a possibility, the kind of game that encourages emergent gameplay.

It's a tired old catchphrase but it's something that holds true for me. I'd quit in an instant if ccp started manufacturing rules that ensured lazy lone pilots without the comitment to forge a giant solar empire could vie with huge corperations for their slice of the market. What should happen in a sandbox game, as in real life, is nothing, until a group of players more determined, and more resourceful, come along and tipploe the goons tech empire. THAT, and only that, is the only acceptable solution in a sandbox, anything else would be artificialy imposed and at the expense of our freedom as a playerbase.


Captain Fandango wants the Tech Empire to be run by the Super Adventure Club

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#117 - 2012-07-08 19:58:23 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Xinivrae wrote:


That right there, that "it's impossible, don't bother to try" mentality is what's keeping you down.

Riiiight, cause my 250 man alliance stands a real good chance in a war for assets against the tens of thousnads of members of the CFC. Every time one of your gangs comes through we destroy it (in admittedly usually good fights), but I am not delusional enough to think we could even make a stand in a real war. You out number us 100 to 1, an some of us don't enjoy playing in TiDi.



Dont like tidi?
You should try a battle of cointoss then, as was the system before tidi.
Two groups enter, one group loads...
Victory.

Tidi is the best thing that happened to eve
Captain Fandango
The Wayward Sons
#118 - 2012-07-08 20:42:06 UTC

Quote:
Captain Fandango wants the Tech Empire to be run by the Super Adventure Club


I want the tech empire to be run by Benjamin Disraeli and Sher Khan, but that is besides the point, I'm happy it exists, a world of enforced equal opportunity is a world that offers no incentives for truly hard work, no incentives for fighting to be the best or dedicating your time to bettering the competition. A world where everyone has to be equally capable of producing and marketing every mineral, resource and item in the game is a world that will not grow, change or develop. That is something to fear, not the evils of goonswarm.

Goonswarm can be fought. sure it wont be easy, sure it will require real effort, by a large number of players, and it will take a while to overcome peoples natrual lethargy and incite rebellion, but there can be no rebellion against stagnation once you've forced ccp to implement a 'fair game'policy that restricts cartels and monopolies, you will have forever forced dystopia upon yourselves, our world will be a shrivelled thing without ambition or drive. fear that, fear lethargy, not the activities of a player group that incite rage and vitriol, these are healthy things.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2012-07-08 20:54:30 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Xinivrae wrote:


That right there, that "it's impossible, don't bother to try" mentality is what's keeping you down.

Riiiight, cause my 250 man alliance stands a real good chance in a war for assets against the tens of thousnads of members of the CFC. Every time one of your gangs comes through we destroy it (in admittedly usually good fights), but I am not delusional enough to think we could even make a stand in a real war. You out number us 100 to 1, an some of us don't enjoy playing in TiDi.


Just throwing out that my alliance, with less than 100 real people behind the chars, held a dozen Tech moons for about six months.
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2012-07-08 21:15:53 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Xinivrae wrote:


That right there, that "it's impossible, don't bother to try" mentality is what's keeping you down.

Riiiight, cause my 250 man alliance stands a real good chance in a war for assets against the tens of thousnads of members of the CFC. Every time one of your gangs comes through we destroy it (in admittedly usually good fights), but I am not delusional enough to think we could even make a stand in a real war. You out number us 100 to 1, an some of us don't enjoy playing in TiDi.



Dont like tidi?
You should try a battle of cointoss then, as was the system before tidi.
Two groups enter, one group loads...
Victory.

Tidi is the best thing that happened to eve


Or I could just not fight in 400man blobs. I PvP all day and never play in TiDi. If your fleets are causing TiDi, well maybe you should get some skills and quit masking the lack of with numbers. I gamed during the 90's but lag does not make me feel nostalgic. TiDi is just equal lag for everyone.