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Devalued ISHUKONE Shirt? CCP Marketing Malpractice? [UPDATE]

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The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#441 - 2012-07-06 15:57:41 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I really see no need for personal insults here. If you cannot be civil, then perhaps you should use the very handy little block function that CCP have given us so that you do not have to see certain people posting. At the rate you are going this thread will be locked and you will end up getting a warning, I'm pretty certain that will not help anyone.


Could you kindly examine the first 10 pages or so? I tried to be civil and calm but after days/weeks of having to endure personal insults from hundreds of people, I guarantee you that even Jesus couldn't handle this kind of stress.

It only requires a single response from CCP DEVS regarding how they will be making an appropriate reparation for the disadvantaged parties, and an absolute guarantee that they won't screw up with other historical items for future marketing promotion. Once ALL the demands are met, I don't see why this thread shouldn't be locked.

CCP promised us that he would provide a response a week ago. A week ago. I had to contact another CCP Dev, to find out that they are still working on a solution.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#442 - 2012-07-06 16:06:41 UTC
The Antiquarian wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I really see no need for personal insults here. If you cannot be civil, then perhaps you should use the very handy little block function that CCP have given us so that you do not have to see certain people posting. At the rate you are going this thread will be locked and you will end up getting a warning, I'm pretty certain that will not help anyone.


Could you kindly examine the first 10 pages or so? I tried to be civil and calm but after days/weeks of having to endure personal insults from hundreds of people, I guarantee you that even Jesus couldn't handle this kind of stress.

It only requires a single response from CCP DEVS regarding how they will be making an appropriate reparation for the disadvantaged parties, and an absolute guarantee that they won't screw up with other historical items for future marketing promotion. Once ALL the demands are met, I don't see why this thread shouldn't be locked.

CCP promised us that he would provide a response a week ago. A week ago. I had to contact another CCP Dev, to find out that they are still working on a solution.



If their language concerns you, then use the report function. Resorting to verbal abuse and baseless insults just because others choose to is a poor excuse sir. You have other lines of communication to CCP open to you, and yet you choose to continue posting in a thread where you know people will attempt to goad you into an argument.

It could be said that you were doing so on purpose, and thus any future complaint you might make regarding the behaviour of other posters would be void. Do yourself a favour, either block those people whose opinions or words cause you distress or report them to CCP.

As for making demands, perhaps you should make requests instead, that way people might be less inclined to ignore you. Having worked in customer services in varying positions and in many different sectors of business, I personally would be much less likely to help someone who behaved in the manner you are displaying here.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#443 - 2012-07-06 16:07:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
The Antiquarian wrote:
Could you kindly examine the first 10 pages or so? I tried to be civil and calm
…and avoided to really respond to questions and arguments. You're also being quite overtly antagonistic by claiming that it's “malpractice” when it is perhaps the most commonly used sales pitch in the book.

If you're getting stressed about people disagreeing with your demands, then you have bigger problems than not getting compensation for a free item…

Quote:
It only requires a single response from CCP DEVS regarding how they will be making an appropriate reparation for the disadvantaged parties, and an absolute guarantee that they won't screw up with other historical items for future marketing promotion.
…and in the meantime, you can explain how you're “disadvantaged” and why it counts as a screw-up. It's not like it's particularly strange that promotional items later become available to all and sundry (in fact, CCP has done exactly that on a number of occasions, and since it's the nature of promotional items, it didn't really come as a surprise to anyone).
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#444 - 2012-07-06 16:08:24 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
The Antiquarian wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I really see no need for personal insults here. If you cannot be civil, then perhaps you should use the very handy little block function that CCP have given us so that you do not have to see certain people posting. At the rate you are going this thread will be locked and you will end up getting a warning, I'm pretty certain that will not help anyone.


Could you kindly examine the first 10 pages or so? I tried to be civil and calm but after days/weeks of having to endure personal insults from hundreds of people, I guarantee you that even Jesus couldn't handle this kind of stress.

It only requires a single response from CCP DEVS regarding how they will be making an appropriate reparation for the disadvantaged parties, and an absolute guarantee that they won't screw up with other historical items for future marketing promotion. Once ALL the demands are met, I don't see why this thread shouldn't be locked.

CCP promised us that he would provide a response a week ago. A week ago. I had to contact another CCP Dev, to find out that they are still working on a solution.



If their language concerns you, then use the report function. Resorting to verbal abuse and baseless insults just because others choose to is a poor excuse sir. You have other lines of communication to CCP open to you, and yet you choose to continue posting in a thread where you know people will attempt to goad you into an argument.

It could be said that you were doing so on purpose, and thus any future complaint you might make regarding the behaviour of other posters would be void. Do yourself a favour, either block those people whose opinions or words cause you distress or report them to CCP.

As for making demands, perhaps you should make requests instead, that way people might be less inclined to ignore you. Having worked in customer services in varying positions and in many different sectors of business, I personally would be much less likely to help someone who behaved in the manner you are displaying here.


You are absolutely right. I lost my sight for a while. I didn't even know that "blocking" function existed on EVE forum. Much appreciated for the advice.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#445 - 2012-07-07 00:14:03 UTC
Off topic and trolling removed.

There is no need for any discussions that the release of the Ishukone shirt was a mistake and shouldn't have happened, CCP t0rfifrans stated that already in clear words.

I would like to remind everyone to stay polite and constructive in their replies, forum rule violations and personal attacks will not be allowed.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#446 - 2012-07-07 00:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mechael
The Antiquarian wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Fair would be the removal of Aurum from EVE. Just sayin'.


That is a pathetic answer. There is nothing wrong with Aurum system. It provides additional cash inflow for CCP while having absolutely no impact on the pre-existing capusleers' gameplay.

It is a system only for those who are willing to spend their own money purely for cosmetic purpose. Do you think having CCP rely on "almost free-to-play" model by allowing capsuleers to fund their own subscription via ISK, sustainable in the long run?

More cash inflow => Higher valuation of the company => the cost of capital goes down for both, equity and debt => better financing options from willing banks and other investors => more employees, more gameplay, more expansions, more Dust, more WoD, more EVE Online, more compensated CCP employees, more quality contents => Win-Win situation for all the stakeholders.

Don't just think about the short-term. Think about what is best for EVE Online and CCP in the long-run for Christ's sake.


Quality is greater than quantity. EVE is an interactive science fiction simulator and a sandbox style game. It is self-evident why microtransactions are bad for such an environment. What I see with Aurum is CCP being short-sighted in its belief that microtransactions will make it more money and thus be good for EVE, at the expense of the long-term integrity of the simulation and sandbox.

I hold that anyone who advocates or uses Aurum is careless in at least one of two ways. Either they haven't followed the ramifications of such a system on a sandbox/simulation through to its almost immediately obvious conclusion, or else they just plain don't care beyond getting their kicks right now.

Microtransactions move EVE from the awesome scifi-simulator/sandbox realm, and into the realm of cheap arcade games (just pump in another quarter ...) or Zynga games. It's a move from away from meaningful and towards vapid. By supporting it, you've picked up the snake and opened the door to all sorts of nastiness, including situations like your current one. Congratulations.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2012-07-07 01:14:16 UTC
Mechael wrote:

Quality is greater than quantity. EVE is an interactive science fiction simulator and a sandbox style game. It is self-evident why microtransactions are bad for such an environment. What I see with Aurum is CCP being short-sighted in its belief that microtransactions will make it more money and thus be good for EVE, at the expense of the long-term integrity of the simulation and sandbox.

I personally don't see how aurum has any further effect on the integrity of the game than plex already does.
Mechael wrote:

I hold that anyone who advocates or uses Aurum is careless in at least one of two ways. Either they haven't followed the ramifications of such a system on a sandbox/simulation through to its almost immediately obvious conclusion, or else they just plain don't care beyond getting their kicks right now.

And what are the ramifications you are seeing? It is entirely possible I'm being totally naive in this, but I'm not seeing any foregone conclusions as of yet.
Mechael wrote:

Microtransactions move EVE from the awesome scifi-simulator/sandbox realm, and into the realm of cheap arcade games (just pump in another quarter ...) or Zynga games. It's a move from away from meaningful and towards vapid. By supporting it, you've picked up the snake and opened the door to all sorts of nastiness, including situations like your current one. Congratulations.

We have a choice of believing CCP in their statement that they will do no game affecting MT's or not. If you believe there is intentional deceit and the intention is for this to move from an inconsequential cash shop to a P2W cash shop then there is no reason to remain here. It's true that it could be a case of boiling the frog, but then it falls to each player to determine at what point from an absolute standard to call it quits. Until we start seeing some actual moves in that direction it may be too early to officially declare that any MT is the downfall of the game.

I would also think that a true simulation of a "sifi world" would have taken into account propensities for seemingly vapid and meaningless actions and obsessions. But I suppose that comes back down to the argument between a Eve as a "spaceship game" or "scifi game."

And you are right about quality over quantity, but additional funding can be great assistance in both.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#448 - 2012-07-07 01:22:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:

It's not like it's particularly strange that promotional items later become available to all and sundry (in fact, CCP has done exactly that on a number of occasions, and since it's the nature of promotional items, it didn't really come as a surprise to anyone).

As my own time here is shorter than many others, I can't recall a point in time when an actual promotional item was made so widely available as was the case here. Some of the gift ships and items were made obtainable in crucible or as part of other offers, but to my recollection those were originally granted just for being active at the time and were not designed to entice a separate or additional purchase.

Is there another incident I'm forgetting or perhaps something that occurred prior to my being in game?
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#449 - 2012-07-07 01:30:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mechael
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mechael wrote:

Quality is greater than quantity. EVE is an interactive science fiction simulator and a sandbox style game. It is self-evident why microtransactions are bad for such an environment. What I see with Aurum is CCP being short-sighted in its belief that microtransactions will make it more money and thus be good for EVE, at the expense of the long-term integrity of the simulation and sandbox.

I personally don't see how aurum has any further effect on the integrity of the game than plex already does.
Mechael wrote:

I hold that anyone who advocates or uses Aurum is careless in at least one of two ways. Either they haven't followed the ramifications of such a system on a sandbox/simulation through to its almost immediately obvious conclusion, or else they just plain don't care beyond getting their kicks right now.

And what are the ramifications you are seeing? It is entirely possible I'm being totally naive in this, but I'm not seeing any foregone conclusions as of yet.
Mechael wrote:

Microtransactions move EVE from the awesome scifi-simulator/sandbox realm, and into the realm of cheap arcade games (just pump in another quarter ...) or Zynga games. It's a move from away from meaningful and towards vapid. By supporting it, you've picked up the snake and opened the door to all sorts of nastiness, including situations like your current one. Congratulations.

We have a choice of believing CCP in their statement that they will do no game affecting MT's or not. If you believe there is intentional deceit and the intention is for this to move from an inconsequential cash shop to a P2W cash shop then there is no reason to remain here. It's true that it could be a case of boiling the frog, but then it falls to each player to determine at what point from an absolute standard to call it quits. Until we start seeing some actual moves in that direction it may be too early to officially declare that any MT is the downfall of the game.

I would also think that a true simulation of a "sifi world" would have taken into account propensities for seemingly vapid and meaningless actions and obsessions. But I suppose that comes back down to the argument between a Eve as a "spaceship game" or "scifi game."

And you are right about quality over quantity, but additional funding can be great assistance in both.


It already is pay-to-win (read: pay for an advantage) and has been since the inclusion of PLEX. I groaned about that, too. Aurum takes it a step further by generating in-game items (vanity or otherwise is largely irrelevant to the principal alone) from thin air, predominantly coming from those with the cash to spend. The ramifications of this are inherently only slightly more dire than the fact that EVE itself is still based on a faucet/sink system*. However, when placed on top of the already fundamentally flawed notion that a faucet/sink system has any place in a simulator it is a clear indication that EVE is moving even further away from a deep simulator and towards a casual, pump-in-your-quarter, get your kicks and **** the rest style game.

Basically, CPP is adding even more systems that fly in the face of the notion that EVE is a sci-fi simulator when they should be rectifying the systems that already do this. Fix the problems, don't compound them.

As to drawing my line in the sand ... I'll stop playing the moment there's a better persistant world, interactive, science fiction simulator out there. If CCP keeps going in the direction it is with microtransactions, pretty soon that'll basically mean I'll switch to the very next one that's released as EVE will hardly qualify anymore.

As to how this is relevant, well ... when you buy into such a system, you should know the system well enough to see exactly what it is that you're buying. The OP clearly did not, and I'm pretty sure he still does not.

*Note that the faucet/sink system is only the most predominant issue in regards to the simulation. There are too many other issues to list, so I just stuck with the most blatant.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#450 - 2012-07-07 01:33:15 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
Off topic and trolling removed.

There is no need for any discussions that the release of the Ishukone shirt was a mistake and shouldn't have happened, CCP t0rfifrans stated that already in clear words.

I would like to remind everyone to stay polite and constructive in their replies, forum rule violations and personal attacks will not be allowed.


Thanks for reminding us that that post exists.

He also stated in that same post:
Quote:
Now that it is out and there is an issue with people that had the shirt prior as a coveted rare collectors item, we have suspended sales on the ishukone shirt while we formulate a plan that's as fair to as many as possible. Expect an update later today on the issue.


I might politely mention that "later today" is long past and we have yet to hear anything. This is the concern that the non trolls have been trying to get an answer to.

Would you be so kind as to supply us with the reason we have not heard anything?

Mr Epeen Cool
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#451 - 2012-07-07 01:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mechael
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

I would also think that a true simulation of a "sifi world" would have taken into account propensities for seemingly vapid and meaningless actions and obsessions. But I suppose that comes back down to the argument between a Eve as a "spaceship game" or "scifi game."


If anyone here thinks EVE is just a spaceship game, they clearly haven't been paying attention since the beginning. Pirate Ambulation (finally halfway realized and marred by a silly MT scheme,) in-atmo flying (hasn't actually been realized yet, unless you're counting DUST vehicles,) planetary interaction, and now DUST as well ... it may have began as just spaceships, but it had to start somewhere.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#452 - 2012-07-07 02:04:52 UTC
Mechael wrote:

It already is pay-to-win (read: pay for an advantage) and has been since the inclusion of PLEX. I groaned about that, too. Aurum takes it a step further by generating in-game items (vanity or otherwise is largely irrelevant to the principal alone) from thin air, predominantly coming from those with the cash to spend. The ramifications of this are inherently only slightly more dire than the fact that EVE itself is still based on a faucet/sink system*. However, when placed on top of the already fundamentally flawed notion that a faucet/sink system has any place in a simulator it is a clear indication that EVE is moving even further away from a deep simulator and towards a casual, pump-in-your-quarter, get your kicks and **** the rest style game..

While I can partially agree with some of your sentiment, I think the fact that the Nex items are spawned out of thin air is and needs to be inextricably linked to their functional uselessness. the fact that no game system or mechanic contributes to their creation is countered and justified by the fact that they have no affect in return. So long as this is maintained I see little issue in Aurum or Nex (though admittedly I'm abit more apprehensive about ship customization as it seems in my mind to come closer to crossing that ever blurry line).

Regarding sinks and faucets, I'd always thought of this as a mechanism to account for the shortfalls of the simulation. Perhaps to counter missing factors such as a lack constant technological advancement of upkeep and the purposeful prevention of items falling toward obsolescence.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#453 - 2012-07-07 02:29:11 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
the fact that no game system or mechanic contributes to their creation is countered and justified by the fact that they have no affect in return.


But they do have an effect. No part of the game is completely separate from the rest of the game. It all adds up to define what EVE is. The only reason EVE is currently afloat and doing as well as it is is because it has no serious competitors. When one does crop up, and actually takes the simulation aspect seriously, EVE may very well be in trouble. Moving forward with DUST will help mitigate that fear, but it also brings EVE even closer to ceasing to fall into that category altogether thanks to DUST's total reliance on microtransactions.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Regarding sinks and faucets, I'd always thought of this as a mechanism to account for the shortfalls of the simulation. Perhaps to counter missing factors such as a lack constant technological advancement of upkeep and the purposeful prevention of items falling toward obsolescence.


More things that need fixing. Big smile

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#454 - 2012-07-07 02:58:33 UTC
Mechael wrote:
It already is pay-to-win (read: pay for an advantage) and has been since the inclusion of PLEX.


Eh, don't see what's the big deal is with PLEX tbh, you could already sell GTCs for isk before they added PLEX into the game (and people still do), the only thing PLEX did was to make things simpler and create the occasional lol-killmail.

And if you stretch the definition of pay-to-win to include any sort of "advantage", then the ability to run multiple accounts is also P2W... and so is the ability to buy a better PC for better client performance or a faster ISP for minimum lag. The slippery slope works both ways.

Mechael wrote:
But they do have an effect. No part of the game is completely separate from the rest of the game. It all adds up to define what EVE is.


So what IS the affect of clothing items in the Nex store on EVE?
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#455 - 2012-07-07 16:38:18 UTC
It's weekend now. Still waiting for the CCP Dev's response.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#456 - 2012-07-07 16:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I personally don't see how aurum has any further effect on the integrity of the game than plex already does.
It has the effect of bypassing the normal player-run market and make items (that some apparently consider valuable) appear out of nowhere, without any industry or time-investment behind them. In and of itself, this could be made tolerable if it weren't for the fact that said items possess the unique and economy-hostile property of being indestructible under normal use. It also robs the game of promised gameplay that would have generated said items in a more “inline with standard game practices” kind of way.

Compare this to PLEX, which are essentially economy neutral. They enter and exit the economy, leaving behind only a tiny ISK sink in the form of taxes and fees spent. While it does shuffle some money around, not net value is actually added, because the PLEX exits the economy when redeemed (after all, all it is is a call option for 30 days of gametime or 3,500 AUR).

Quote:
As my own time here is shorter than many others, I can't recall a point in time when an actual promotional item was made so widely available as was the case here. Some of the gift ships and items were made obtainable in crucible or as part of other offers, but to my recollection those were originally granted just for being active at the time and were not designed to entice a separate or additional purchase.
They were free promotional items just the same.


By the way, CCP Phantom, asking someone why they should be reimbursed for a free item is neither off-topic nor trolling…
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#457 - 2012-07-07 16:59:06 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
Off topic and trolling removed.

There is no need for any discussions that the release of the Ishukone shirt was a mistake and shouldn't have happened, CCP t0rfifrans stated that already in clear words.

I would like to remind everyone to stay polite and constructive in their replies, forum rule violations and personal attacks will not be allowed.


Thanks for reminding us that that post exists.

He also stated in that same post:
Quote:
Now that it is out and there is an issue with people that had the shirt prior as a coveted rare collectors item, we have suspended sales on the ishukone shirt while we formulate a plan that's as fair to as many as possible. Expect an update later today on the issue.


I might politely mention that "later today" is long past and we have yet to hear anything. This is the concern that the non trolls have been trying to get an answer to.

Would you be so kind as to supply us with the reason we have not heard anything?

Mr Epeen Cool


Also very anxious to hear the Dev's response. It's already been more than a week. I believe we waited long enough. =/
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#458 - 2012-07-07 17:47:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:


By the way, CCP Phantom, asking someone why they should be reimbursed for a free item is neither off-topic nor trolling…


Well I'll give you this. You are certainly tenacious in your righteous indignation.

I'll tell you a little secret. Trolling other players will get your post deleted, but going up against a dev will get you a vacation. Might want to ease up and do what they say.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#459 - 2012-07-07 17:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mr Epeen wrote:
I'll tell you a little secret. Trolling other players will get your post deleted, but going up against a dev will get you a vacation.
Good thing that I don't troll other players or devs, then.

Also, you might want to look up the meaning of “righteous indignation”. It's what the OP seems to be feigning. I'm merely asking a question that he seems to be unable to answer (which is a bit odd, since answering it would probably help push the devs towards the kind decision he desires).
Alhezhar Alabyd al-Mu'minin
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#460 - 2012-07-07 18:12:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
What it is about is CCP offering a one-off item in exchange for a significant purchase of PLEXes and then doing a complete reverse after putting the money in their pockets.
No, what it is about is the OP getting fooled by a “one-time offer” and thinking that, unlike every one-time offer ever, it was the items that were “one-time” and not the offer itself.

He blames CCP for this, but hasn't been able to offer much proof that they're at fault.



Proof they're at fault? This isn't a court preceding--it's public relations.

Look, the original poster might be an absolute short-bus-rider who spent $230 for a videogame t-shirt, but I'm pretty sure he clearly understands this weak semantic distinction you're pushing and just plain don't agree with it--whether it was a "limited" or "special" edition and he-should-have-known-the-difference is a real lame thing to hang your argument on.

Legality ain't morality and just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. The folks who're agreeing with the nerdlord, and the nerdlord himself, they're all saying that CCP ought to pursue business practices where the marketing team doesn't have to leave chunky fanboys feeling deceived, especially when said phlegmy fanboys is [already yes IS already] trying really rather aggressively to fork-over their drool-covered cash by the unwashed handful.

Heck, it might not even make bad business sense to not-alienate your most idiotic and devoted customers.