These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Attack frigate changes

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#201 - 2012-07-03 18:04:56 UTC
Not sure where youre getting your Sentinels/How youre fitting them, but i can get them for 20m, +10/15m for Fit and thats nearly half of the price you stated.
Also - Neuts + Drones are not a 'fleet' ship.
You want a Tanky Neut Drone Ship. So, a Ship that can Neut with the best of them, Tank like a brick, and still do Reasonable DPS. Oh, and you want it T1.
To put it simply, you cant have everything you want. There are T2 ships that are Specialised into exactly what you want, and there are T1 ships that can do what you want sort of well.
Regardless -Arbitrator does pretty much exactly what you are looking for, and the Crucifier is becoming a miniature Arbitrator. Simply fit Neuts + Tank + Drones, as well as those Neut Rigs (Egress Port Maximiser or whatever) and there you have it, a Neuty, Tanky Droneboat, that is T1, and is also Cheap(ish). You also get the option of using TDs.

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
John Nucleus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#202 - 2012-07-03 18:27:47 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:
Not sure where youre getting your Sentinels/How youre fitting them, but i can get them for 20m, +10/15m for Fit and thats nearly half of the price you stated.

The price has been increasing steadily for a while now. The current price in Jita is 35mil. Where do you get yours at 20mil?
Mira Lynne wrote:

Also - Neuts + Drones are not a 'fleet' ship.
You want a Tanky Neut Drone Ship. So, a Ship that can Neut with the best of them, Tank like a brick, and still do Reasonable DPS. Oh, and you want it T1.
To put it simply, you cant have everything you want. There are T2 ships that are Specialised into exactly what you want, and there are T1 ships that can do what you want sort of well.
Regardless -Arbitrator does pretty much exactly what you are looking for, and the Crucifier is becoming a miniature Arbitrator. Simply fit Neuts + Tank + Drones, as well as those Neut Rigs (Egress Port Maximiser or whatever) and there you have it, a Neuty, Tanky Droneboat, that is T1, and is also Cheap(ish). You also get the option of using TDs.


I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'd like to see more T1 amarr ship with bonuses in energy neutralizer. For example, clone the punisher and give it a range/cap bonus to neuts instead of laser damage. Or a destroyer that can fit medium sized neuts. It would give amarr ships a different and interesting flavour.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#203 - 2012-07-04 00:06:14 UTC
wait wtf how come the condor once possibly the fastest t1 frig now gets speed nerf like wtf ? it now cant use rockets effectively cause everything is faster than it and if they wanna get away there fine and aint got the speed to use missles before the others are on top of it really ? give it some kinda chance.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#204 - 2012-07-04 10:06:48 UTC
serras bang wrote:
wait wtf how come the condor once possibly the fastest t1 frig now gets speed nerf like wtf ?


Yes, new base speed of 400m/s is below the TQ speed of 404m/s.

But the fastest T1 frig is definitely the Vigil; the other shield-tanking ship in this class, the Slasher, has a base speed of 419m/s on TQ.

Quote:
it now cant use rockets effectively cause everything is faster than it and if they wanna get away there fine and aint got the speed to use missles before the others are on top of it really ? give it some kinda chance


Slasher and Atron will close to fight in rocket range. There are also ships outside this class that you might point, that will send drones into range of your rockets. Anyway, the ship is being buffed hard, and only losing 4m/s.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#205 - 2012-07-04 11:41:14 UTC
The Executioner here would be fine if the lasers wouldn´t have the tracking problems. It would really perform much better with rocket bays.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#206 - 2012-07-05 01:21:57 UTC
dosent just lose 4ms not after its been fitted with overdrives ect and it still has slowest align time and lowest aceleration by being the heaviest and low base hp also dosent help a lil buf to the shield to what they are now would help a lot.

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#207 - 2012-07-05 08:52:14 UTC
serras bang wrote:
dosent just lose 4ms not after its been fitted with overdrives ect and it still has slowest align time and lowest aceleration by being the heaviest and low base hp also dosent help a lil buf to the shield to what they are now would help a lot.


You are crazy : best shield mean best passive regen. All caldari ship have less total hp than the others, but more shield, and they are not seen as weak ; in fact, they tend to be seen as very tanky...
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#208 - 2012-07-06 04:13:31 UTC
If the stats of the tech 1 frig hull change, alter the tech 2 ships based off that.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#209 - 2012-07-06 04:24:43 UTC
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:
If the stats of the tech 1 frig hull change, alter the tech 2 ships based off that.

Four mid-slot Malediction *Drool* Lol

Some of it will/should be transferred upwards as it were, but the T2 hulls are already very different from their T1 ancestors to a point where some of them only really share the base graphical model (ex. Malediction .. Goddess I love that boat).
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#210 - 2012-07-07 10:03:50 UTC
i fly soly caldari and ill tell yah now that condor gets up close to anything itll be ripped apart but prob is it can no longer stop it happening.
Cyvhiros
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#211 - 2012-07-09 11:55:40 UTC
Misiles/Rockets:

Cons:

Average lower DPS than turret weapons (AC's, Pulses, Blasters)
Only available on 1 "size", not with multiple versions as turrets
Harder to fit than most of the turret systems (with the notable exceptions of the neut II and the med pulse II)
Handicaped by the radius/velocity system wich allmost in any case decrease ur DPS.
Imposibility of increasing range, radius/velocity issues by any means except for the rigs.
Misiles take some time to reach their target.


Pros:

Average longer range than turrets (though not in every case--> pulse lasers).
No cap usage.
Different damage types to choose.
Not affected by turret EWAR modules (though affected by other modules, such as smartbombs or defender misiles)

Now that just makes me wonder why the new condor gets a damage bonus that includes the "Kineticdamage only" handicap, thus negating one of the least advantages misiles actually have!

Ist just as nonsense as a minmatar ship wich would have a damage bonus only applying to "Hail" ammo.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#212 - 2012-07-09 12:01:09 UTC
Consider giving these ships all at least a 28km targeting range, since tackling bonuses aren't very good when you can't even lock out to overheated T2 point range. The Slasher's 20km lockrage is particularly pathetic.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#213 - 2012-07-09 13:31:47 UTC
Cyvhiros wrote:
Misiles/Rockets:

Cons:

Harder to fit than most of the turret systems (with the notable exceptions of the neut II and the med pulse II)

This is plain wrong. Only weapon system easier to fit than rockets and standard launchers is projectile turrets. Any hybrid turret is plain harder to fit that missile launcher, and top tier laser turret use a lot more PG for a little less CPU ; and that's not even considering missile boat having way more CPU than hybrid or laser boats.

Selecting damage type is huge thing by the way, and sometimes way more useful than 25% damage ; ask laser boat about T2 minmatar ships... And projectile ammo are not pure damage ; though they are winmatar anyway...

About lock range : apply skills.
Cyvhiros
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#214 - 2012-07-09 15:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyvhiros
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

This is plain wrong. Only weapon system easier to fit than rockets and standard launchers is projectile turrets. Any hybrid turret is plain harder to fit that missile launcher, and top tier laser turret use a lot more PG for a little less CPU ; and that's not even considering missile boat having way more CPU than hybrid or laser boats.



Well lets have a look at the modules

Rocket launcher: PG 4 / CPU: 17

Light electron blaster II: PG 4 / CPU: 8

Light ion blaster II: PG: 7 / CPU: 12

Light neutron blaster II: PG: 9 / CPU: 18

Gatling Pulse: PG: 6 / CPU: 4

Dual light Pulse: PG: 6 / CPU: 6

Medium Pulse: PG: 12 / CPU: 17

No need to speak about AC's all of them are actually below on both PG and CPU, now as u can see only Medium Pulse laser II and Light neutron blaster II have higher requierements, all other turret types are below the rockets, plus rockets only have this one choice, where turrets may choose between 3 types of turret in any case.

The fact is that only 2 types of turret are above the rockets in fitting requirements) and 6 turret types are below.

And about that damage choice, well thats actually how misile system work, they have less dps in exchange for the different types of ammo, just as projectile turrets have, so i think misile specialiced vessels should be able to make USE of this feature, rather than be limitted by its own bonuses.

P.D.: IM not saying that fitting turrets on some vessels is easier than fitting the rockets on others! im only speaking of the plain requirements of the modules.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#215 - 2012-07-09 15:14:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Cyvhiros wrote:
Misiles/Rockets:

Cons:

Harder to fit than most of the turret systems (with the notable exceptions of the neut II and the med pulse II)

This is plain wrong. Only weapon system easier to fit than rockets and standard launchers is projectile turrets. Any hybrid turret is plain harder to fit that missile launcher, and top tier laser turret use a lot more PG for a little less CPU ; and that's not even considering missile boat having way more CPU than hybrid or laser boats.

Selecting damage type is huge thing by the way, and sometimes way more useful than 25% damage ; ask laser boat about T2 minmatar ships... And projectile ammo are not pure damage ; though they are winmatar anyway...

About lock range : apply skills.



i'm inclined to agree on the fitting point and would say that its more the ships intended to make us of such weapons which are the issue, after all caldari tend to have rather feeble grid in favour of massive CPU which makes fitting the "demanding" rockets and missiles more of an issue, this issue is much more pronounced on the caldari "missile" boats as a whole with the same problems effecting the caracal (though not the drake)

I would say all told that the issue is more the relative investment of fitting to effectiveness. rockets aren't quite as bad as they were thanks to that correction in explosive radius CCP sorted out a short time ago so now rockets are able to be effective against other frigates. light missiles however need a little bit of love. as i mentioned earlier in this thread they've got the longest range of any frigate based weapon but the ships which make use of them often find their entire fitting consumed by them, which is understandable. i would think that a simple rate of fire increase to bring them up to "current" weapon standards would be all that is needed. and besides, who wouldn't want to see more of those glorious missile trails arcing across space?

i think people are either over or underestimating missile systems a bit here. I don't believe in the "END ALL OMG 100=150 DPS" stuff but nor do i believe that they're as weak as some people are claiming either. A little dps love love for rockets would be welcome but i think for standard missiles there is more issue with the ships that fit them (the kestrel has problems even fitting an after burner after putting on 4 standard launcher II's) but as we of course know, this will be looked at with the four "bombardment" frigates; the kestrel, the inquisitor, the breacher and the tristan.

basically what i'm saying light missiles aren't a "weapon" problem they're a "hull" problem, which is going to be corrected soon enough.

rockets are a bit more of a conundrum as honestly, i quite like their current balance sitting in at the same overall damage effect as electron blasters but having more range (and of course, no option of going up to "neutron" launchers as it were). while I won't say no to improved rocket damage I again think its issues are more that of the hulls which use them as a primary weapon system. anyone who's run into a pilot named patrick kasper will know how devastating rockets can be in the hands of a good kestrel and hookbill pilot (http://rvbeve.com/red/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=387) but the simple "correction" of missile platform ships to the 10 slot layout with a bit more grid and CPU and fitting will solve almost all problems people have.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Cyvhiros
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#216 - 2012-07-09 15:29:31 UTC
Dont get me wrong, im not saying misiles/rockets are weaker than their turret counterparts, nor am I intending them to get any kind of buff.

The only thing I hope for is that misile vessels get the chance of using their weapon systems full potential, with all its pros and cons, and that they are not crippled by its own ship basic bonusses.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#217 - 2012-07-09 15:36:15 UTC
Cyvhiros wrote:


No need to speak about AC's all of them are actually below on both PG and CPU, now as u can see only Medium Pulse laser II and Light neutron blaster II have higher requierements, all other turret types are below the rockets, plus rockets only have this one choice, where turrets may choose between 3 types of turret in any case.

The fact is that only 2 types of turret are above the rockets in fitting requirements) and 6 turret types are below.

And about that damage choice, well thats actually how misile system work, they have less dps in exchange for the different types of ammo, just as projectile turrets have, so i think misile specialiced vessels should be able to make USE of this feature, rather than be limitted by its own bonuses.

P.D.: IM not saying that fitting turrets on some vessels is easier than fitting the rockets on others! im only speaking of the plain requirements of the modules.

Have you failed to plug your eyes ? Aren't you seeing the PG requirements ? Missiles require less PG than ANY hybrid or laser turret. I know CPU is important to caldari, and often the thing you are short of in your fitting, but hybrid have this problem for both CPU AND PG, and laser have the exact problem you have with PG. And top tier gun have insane requirements compared to missiles.

BTW, downgrading your gun is not an all benefit thing : lowest tier gun lose their dps advantage over missiles ; even less on higher range, starting very shortly with these easily fitable guns.

Missiles are between mid and top tier gun, both in term of fitting and dps ; they have the best range though, no matter what.
Cyvhiros
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#218 - 2012-07-09 15:59:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyvhiros
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


Missiles are between mid and top tier gun, both in term of fitting and dps ; they have the best range though, no matter what.



You said it yourself:

An amarr ship will have the choice of using their top tier guns, or swap those and use the mid tier guns for a looser fitting, and maybe the choice of using something with higher requirements in their low/mid slots, misile vessels cant do that, and REALLY, u are comparing the +3 PG cost of the Dual pulse laser II with the +9 CPU cost of the rockets?? If compared to the mid tier weapons, Rockets are THE most expensive in means of CPU/PG ratio, with the only exception of the ion blaster wich is on pair with the rockets.

And again this is not the issue, but the fact that caldari missile vessels (t1 ones) and except for the Raven, are crippled by the handicap of the Kinetic-only damage. Missiles are suposed to use all 4 kinds of pure damage, let us make decent use of it.


P.D.: To get this issue out of the world, lets just say MISSILES arent "harder" but LESS VERSATILE to fit.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#219 - 2012-07-10 10:11:51 UTC
Cyvhiros wrote:

And again this is not the issue, but the fact that caldari missile vessels (t1 ones) and except for the Raven, are crippled by the handicap of the Kinetic-only damage. Missiles are suposed to use all 4 kinds of pure damage, let us make decent use of it.


P.D.: To get this issue out of the world, lets just say MISSILES arent "harder" but LESS VERSATILE to fit.

I'm interested in your ships that have the same amount of PG and CPU TBH... But yes, when your frig have three times more cpu than pg, +3PG is exactly the same than +9CPU ; you should really try to fly something else than caldari frigate.

For the last sentence, we can finaly agree though : missiles are less versatile in their fitting options.

For the crippling handicap, Amarr and Gallente suffer it a lot more. At least *you* can select damage, and as I said, playing with resistance hole sometimes worst even a 50% damage bonus : against T2 gallente ships for exemple. Minmatar are not winmatar for no reason BTW, if you consider using this argument ; and minmatar ammo are not pure damage BTW. Oh, and T2 ammo with selectable damage too, as opposed to minmatar.

Honestly, a drake or a tengu without kinetic only bonus would be insane. You can already use any damage type you want ; you have incentive to use kinetic.
Zhephell
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#220 - 2012-07-10 10:56:16 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Zhephell wrote:

These statistics are very funny indeed : if you look at them better, you can see that most team which fielded amarr ship won. There was even two punisher fielded and they always survived, as opposed to the two rifters who do not. You can also see that the ships which have the worst win ratio are gallente ones.

...

About beam fitting, you seem not to have fitted a lot of railguns : they are *very* hard to fit without big sacrifices if you want your top gun, and that's when you can fit them at all, because most ships just cannot without fitting mods. Amarr ships have more fitting and more low slots for this. Add to this than beam have the best tracking AND the best dps of long range weapons, and you can not really argue that they are weak. Their problem is only scorch being too good so their range it obsolete them. Face it : railguns are only weak beams after you consider ships differences.

And for neutralizer, they are as effective on gallente boats as they are on amarr ones, if not more ; amar have the best capacitor, by far, did you remember ?

Oh, and the Harbinger is anything but a bad ship in fact. And cap neuting ship : curse may be the most hated ship after ecm boats. And no need to speak about their BS... If anything, the problem amarr have is an inability to effectively fit a shield tank, and that is by design...


I know that in the tournament gallente ships had a worst survival rate, but it is because it is too hard to win an enemy with a minmatar fleet if you use gallente ships (you know: minmatars have more range and speed = chouse range, chouse dmg, and can't be neutralized... so amarr ships didn't kill all those gallente ships, all those gallente loses are because minmatar ships are a hard enemy for gallente players, and it is the same or worst if you use amarr vs minmatar.
So don't say that amarr ships are much better, a gallente fleet can't win easy because you have to face minmatars in pvp, amarr ships in the tournamet where used as escorts, and not as attack vessels like gallente units, an amarr fleet in the tournament should be a big disaster.

I think like you that many gallente ships have problems, but it isn't amarr fault.

And speaking about the rails and beams, i know that rails are dificoult to fit, but beams are the same or worst because you have biger cap problems, and only can be more balanced the fitting if you have a 10% less cap need in turrets as bonus, and then you ll lose a dps bonus probably and have a worst dmg that a rail ship, an example can be an hyperion fitted with rails and an apoc with beams, i have use the pyfa to see fitting and the hyperion works better, 1st don't need to increase the power, or the cpu to fit 425mm rails, and the apoc needs a 12% more power grid, and the hyperion can have a better dps, i am using the apoc because it is the only amarr ship bigger that a cruiser who is able to use beams "decently"

If you think that amarr ships can use well energy turrets because they have more capacitor, you are wrong:
using the values of the phyton fitting assistant with skills at lvl 5, the apoc has +28,9 GJ per second as capacitor recharge time, and megathrone has +20,8GJ per second, but a mega pulse with coflagration and 2 heat sinks use 4,07 of cap in the apoc with the 10% cap reduction bonus at lvl 5, and a neutron blaster use with voild and 2 magnetic fields 2,59 of cap, what i mean is that the apoc has a 38% more cap recharge rate, but with the 10% cap bonus at lvl 5 a pulse need a 57% more cap that one neutron blaster using 2 modules to increase dmg, and the apoc has the best cap lvl of the amarr bs

You said that the harbinger is a nice pvp ship, thrue, but the hurricane is practically the same, only a little less dps and can use 2 neuts, or 2 missiles if you like the dps, can't be neuted, and choose range and distance, and can choose dmg too.

O yes, speaking about choose dmg i have see many posts that say that the new condor need a 10% cintetic dmg, because if they chose dmg some t2 frigates with less range can't do nothing.
This is fun, many minmatar ships can chouse range with two 5% bonuses to the dps for all kind of damage, and are fastter and have more range that gallente ships.
They are killing to easy amarr t2 ships because have a good dps and chouse em dmg to kill them and ccp don't do nothing, but ccp puts a 5% dmg bonus to rete of fire to the condor that have less dps that the others ships, and now they have put a 10% kinetic dmg per lvl and with no range bonus, that's funy.
So now, the condor ll be the same that the kestrel but with 1 launcher less, the 10% kinetic dmg but not the 5% damage to the other missiles, and only ll have more speed, but a worst fitting probably.
Hehe now i can be sure of 2 things: 1) ccp favorite faction is minmatar, and 2) ccp have no idea to balance
If the objective of the new balance is to have different ship roles i don't see that in the new condor if i compare it with the kestrel, the only i see is that it is the same but worst

It is fine that ccp have in mind what the player says, but they need to perceive some coments that the only they want is to win always. It is a condor, if he has a good range don't try to kill it with blasters. And the problem of choose dmg and have dps bonuses exist with projectiles and t2 amarr ships, why ccp don't do nothing with that? The porblem is that t2 ships best defenses against the enemy faction have no sense, it's better more ehp.