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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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3200mm Armor Plates & X-Large Shield Extenders

Author
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#1 - 2011-10-08 06:14:24 UTC
Has this been proposed before? If so, was it shot down with extreme prejudice?

I figure it might be useful to add 3200mm plates and XL extenders, but with the drawback of requiring more than twice the PG/CPU of two 1600mm or LSEs. You get an extra slot, but you have to pay more grid and CPU to fit it.

Katrina Oniseki

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#2 - 2011-10-08 06:21:24 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Has this been proposed before? If so, was it shot down with extreme prejudice?

I figure it might be useful to add 3200mm plates and XL extenders, but with the drawback of requiring more than twice the PG/CPU of two 1600mm or LSEs. You get an extra slot, but you have to pay more grid and CPU to fit it.


This is bad idea on the grounds this frees up a tank slot for more resistance.

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Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#3 - 2011-10-08 06:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Quote:
This is bad idea on the grounds this frees up a tank slot for more resistance.


Isn't that the point though? Same reason there's an 800mm and 1600mm plate set.

I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I know the fitting difference between a large and XL booster is far more than simply double, and if I'm correct.. two 800mm plates give you more tank than a 1600mm plate. Not sure on that though.

There's plenty of ways you can balance the numbers so it works.

Katrina Oniseki

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#4 - 2011-10-08 06:44:00 UTC
Well it may not seem like much but when you're talking super carriers and titans well you got major problems of just possibly making a ship 4x harder to kill this way the EHP works.

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Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#5 - 2011-10-08 07:09:36 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Well it may not seem like much but when you're talking super carriers and titans well you got major problems of just possibly making a ship 4x harder to kill this way the EHP works.


I was unaware people put plates and extenders on capitals, nevermind supercapitals.

Katrina Oniseki

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#6 - 2011-10-08 07:33:33 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Well it may not seem like much but when you're talking super carriers and titans well you got major problems of just possibly making a ship 4x harder to kill this way the EHP works.


I was unaware people put plates and extenders on capitals, nevermind supercapitals.



Its all about the EHP, DCU is the most effective HP adder on any capitol because it doubles the number of hull points. When I was fighting the great war though people shoved as many gawd awful most expensive plates they could on a any capitol they could just to make it harder to kill in a sick game of min/maxing resistances to effectively create ships that had well over orignal hp though EHP. I havent founght in 0.0 in recent times but if the truth still holds out, any ability to increase hp by percents without sacrificing function would be pounced on still Im quite sure. Im sure a current pvper of 0.0 can fine tune or at least correct me on the arrangement of capitol tanking these days I dont think it evolved that much since I left.

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Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#7 - 2011-10-08 09:03:05 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Well it may not seem like much but when you're talking super carriers and titans well you got major problems of just possibly making a ship 4x harder to kill this way the EHP works.


I was unaware people put plates and extenders on capitals, nevermind supercapitals.



Its all about the EHP, DCU is the most effective HP adder on any capitol because it doubles the number of hull points. When I was fighting the great war though people shoved as many gawd awful most expensive plates they could on a any capitol they could just to make it harder to kill in a sick game of min/maxing resistances to effectively create ships that had well over orignal hp though EHP. I havent founght in 0.0 in recent times but if the truth still holds out, any ability to increase hp by percents without sacrificing function would be pounced on still Im quite sure. Im sure a current pvper of 0.0 can fine tune or at least correct me on the arrangement of capitol tanking these days I dont think it evolved that much since I left.
Poeple don't use extenders and plates anymore on capitals. Adding resistance instead is far more effective on a capital tank. And if people want to increase their base hp, then they use Rigs (or in the case of shields they can also use Power Diagnostic Systems).


The only ships that really benefit form 3200mm and X-L extenders are the Battleships.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#8 - 2011-10-08 12:25:00 UTC
buffer tanking is already too strong, especially if compared to active tank in pvp.
no need to buff it even more
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-10-08 12:31:57 UTC
Supercapitals get more EHP from Energized Regenerative Plates then 40 1600mm plates
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#10 - 2011-10-08 18:17:23 UTC
Quote:

Its all about the EHP, DCU is the most effective HP adder on any capitol because it doubles the number of hull points. When I was fighting the great war though people shoved as many gawd awful most expensive plates they could on a any capitol they could just to make it harder to kill in a sick game of min/maxing resistances to effectively create ships that had well over orignal hp though EHP. I havent founght in 0.0 in recent times but if the truth still holds out, any ability to increase hp by percents without sacrificing function would be pounced on still Im quite sure. Im sure a current pvper of 0.0 can fine tune or at least correct me on the arrangement of capitol tanking these days I dont think it evolved that much since I left.


The damage control doesn't cause such an EHP buff because it adds hull hitpoints. It doubles the EHP because it adds resistances to all three layers. Plates and extenders don't increase by a percentage, and they don't affect resistance.

Katrina Oniseki

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#11 - 2011-10-08 18:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
EHP adder I meant. either way there is only so much you can add resistances with though before the pentalties start sinking in so additional buffer would be the option when the additional resists you're add are less than 10% from original. But freeing up a tank slot does leave it to be taken up by something thats is absolutly going to make the ship that much harder to kill which is the point of the module in the first place but I fear that the addium of this module would make it too convient for some ships to be pushed well beyond into 'its going be a while to kill me.'

I agree active tanks need buffs but there is no currently logical way you can make them compensate enough for fleet war these days and keep it fair for skirmishes.

I guess the best way to see if these modules are worth the risk or not would be to sit down at a table and do some anaylitics with them.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#12 - 2011-10-08 18:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Well it may not seem like much but when you're talking super carriers and titans well you got major problems of just possibly making a ship 4x harder to kill this way the EHP works.


I was unaware people put plates and extenders on capitals, nevermind supercapitals.


If you ever see some capital with plates please post the KM, I'm already laughing. Lol

Because of this:

Quote:
Supercapitals get more EHP from Energized Regenerative Plates then 40 1600mm plates
Havak Kouvo
Doomheim
#13 - 2011-10-08 18:43:07 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Well it may not seem like much but when you're talking super carriers and titans well you got major problems of just possibly making a ship 4x harder to kill this way the EHP works.


I was unaware people put plates and extenders on capitals, nevermind supercapitals.



Its all about the EHP, DCU is the most effective HP adder on any capitol because it doubles the number of hull points. When I was fighting the great war though people shoved as many gawd awful most expensive plates they could on a any capitol they could just to make it harder to kill in a sick game of min/maxing resistances to effectively create ships that had well over orignal hp though EHP. I havent founght in 0.0 in recent times but if the truth still holds out, any ability to increase hp by percents without sacrificing function would be pounced on still Im quite sure. Im sure a current pvper of 0.0 can fine tune or at least correct me on the arrangement of capitol tanking these days I dont think it evolved that much since I left.


The HP gains on a Capital with an extender or plate are greatly eclipsed by adding the proper resist.
Alxea
Unstable Pirate Sharks Of The Damed Sea
#14 - 2011-10-08 20:40:55 UTC
I think more buffer would be great. It is passive shield tanks that are overpowered. Armor needs a buff.
Quark Valhala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-10-08 20:57:53 UTC
Alxea wrote:
I think more buffer would be great. It is passive shield tanks that are overpowered. Armor needs a buff.


You do mean Drake or not?
Armor tanks works fine but not many peoples dare to put on active reps, after logis entered the field. :)
Dual rep myrms and ishtars Are both nice ships and still agile to catch stuff. Where buffer work best for the range
Of amarr lazorsssss + they cap out easy if its not the sacralige that also can have an active tank.
Also depends if you Are doing small gang Are large gang warfare.
( off topic .... Bost deagresion timer for gate jumping with 30sek and docking with 2.5 min.)
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#16 - 2011-10-08 21:53:18 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:

I guess the best way to see if these modules are worth the risk or not would be to sit down at a table and do some anaylitics with them.


I came up with some sample fitting requirements for the two mods.

Since the Large Shield booster and Large extender both have the same PG usage, I figure XL booster would have the same as an XL extender. The CPU seems to pretty much more than double from Large booster to XL booster. The boost amount more than doubles with that upgrade too, so I'll do the same with the hitpoints.


So,

X-Large Shield Extender II

5200 shield hitpoints
550 MW
150 tf (approx)


For the plate, the hitpoint gain is pretty simple when you go from 800 to 1600. Just a tiny bit over double. The PG gain goes from 230 to 575, which is double and a half. CPU goes from 28 to 33. Negligible.

So,
3200mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
8400 armor hitpoints
1437 MW
40 tf (approx)

Katrina Oniseki

Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2011-10-08 22:10:18 UTC
it be great to see fail suicide ganks cause someone fit a bunch of 3200mm plates or something.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#18 - 2011-10-09 00:07:08 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
it be great to see fail suicide ganks cause someone fit a bunch of 3200mm plates or something.



Fitting requirements for these things would make it very very hard to shove a full rack of them.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
#19 - 2011-10-09 00:28:13 UTC
unless you're Caldari and can only have four plates :P

Seriously, though, I'd like to state that I'm all four XL plates and extenders, even though I won't be able to use them on my drake :(

Where the science gets done

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#20 - 2011-10-09 00:44:26 UTC
tankus2 wrote:
unless you're Caldari and can only have four plates :P

Seriously, though, I'd like to state that I'm all four XL plates and extenders, even though I won't be able to use them on my drake :(



Thank you for reminding me why they shifted form having plates on capitals, there was a balancing patch back then where they made it possibel to fit multiple resist plates much easier, making the EHP concept very much possible. Then they nerfed the heck out of hull fibers next patch I think to the dismay of many cap pilots who where honor tanking then.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.