Wormholes

Maybe fit your ship better so it can deal with frigs next time (Warrior IIs?)... or have a friend/alt come by with anti-tackle setup.

This is what I absolutely hate about the current form of SD most of the time its people getting themselves into a situation and then not being held properly to account for it.

Only times I would SD/think about SDing is if:

Game bug put me in a bad situation.

Very specific instances of fleet failure i.e. if I commited my carrier to a fight to save my fleet only to have them use the opportunity to save their own ships at the cost of my carrier even if we had the numbers/composition for a good fight (bit on the fence on this one).


If I've commited to a fight even if it turns out I badly misjudged the situation I wouldn't SD - thats for losers.

from csm minutes:
"If you build a fortress in there it is impossible to invade". The mechanics of infiltrating
capital ships into wormholes was discussed, as well as the "chain-collapsing" mechanic. CCP expressed some concern that as long as you were with a group of people, wormhole space is too safe. CCP was worried that the introduction of some sort of wormhole stabilizer would remove some of the everyday safety that people have grown to expect.”

some long time ago i made a long threat about why the stabilizers are a terrible idea, and that part isnt relevant for this particulair discussion. However, sd'ing is, so here goes

what to do about “fortress systems”. The answer is, change how self destruct works; yes, it is that simple.

An invasion of a well defended system with capable enemies is a lot of work. You can sneak scouts in, capitals, or entire fleets over time. Then you get initial fight over wormhole control so you can get reinforcements and supplies in, and then the actual assault starts. During this entire time you have to maintain full system control to make sure people don't log off in safe spots with their fancy stuff, or simply scan down the wormhole and do a runner. Simply put, its a lot of work to do so.

Considering the effort in engaging these “fortress” systems, there is very little incentive to do so because of the “Self destruction mechanics”. Unlike 0sec, a wormhole system doesn't have any value on its own. There are plenty of c5’s and c6’s unoccupied, plenty for everyone to find a new one or take another (or to start living in high class wormhole space). So conquering a wormhole isn't really a reward for attacking them, certainly not a fortress sytem, since a similar system can be found without a fight. The only argument to still attack a well defended system is then that you either get paid to do so, that there is a sincere grudge against the owners of that system, or because of a lot of loot.

So self destruct. Invading a wormhole can bring you 2 things. And maybe a good fight sometimes. First there is loot from the hangars. However, due to the restriction of having to live in POS’s where room is limited and personal hangar space doesn't exist, this tends to be rather disappointing. Surely you can loot a few billion from taking down some wormhole posses, but with the amount of people needed and the amount of hours going into it, you're better off ice mining. The real gold tends to be in ships. This is partly because of income, yes, we can make a metric fuckton of isk, and partly again due to mass. Since the amount of ships you can bring is limited, every ship needs to be as affective as it can be. So faction mods and deadspace fittings are more a standard then an exception.

However, the simple fact is, 9 out of 10 times you won’t get any ships. At some time during the reinforcement timer, people locked in a POS that is camped and bubbled, realise that they cant get out or win this, and start selfdestructing. Every ship gets blown up to refuse the attacking party to make money out of this. And it works. Usually, you don’t make a lot out of system assaults. This brings us to the simple fact that unless you have a very specific reason to attack a wormhole or corporation, its not worth your time or effort to attack a system, let alone something as hard to take as a fortress system.

Therefore, selfdestruct. Selfdestruct is used to deny people loot or killmails. The problem is that without the ships inside a pos in wormhole space, its not worth attacking a pos in many cases. If this would be changed, it might actually be worth doing and therefor more people will start invading wormhole systems. The change could be as simple as, you can’t selfdestruct in a forcefield, which makes sense considering you can’t do anything that does BOOM in a forcefield. Or that when selfdestructing you also pod yourself, so the pilot has to make a decision what to take out, an expensive ship or a hauler filled with expensive stuff. Whatever the change would be, if it allows people in wormhole space to actually loot the (majority) of the ships, i think there is a fair chance that corps and alliances will actually spend several days shooting at a tower, holding system control, and finish the take down. As boring as it can get, the chance to strike gold when blowing up ship maintenance arrays might turn out to be the incentive to see more full scale attacks.

Wrong. It doesn't become null. It becomes empty

They lose the ship and contents, so.


If you don't like someone SD'ing on you; kill faster.



I see some mention of wh nerf... i've been waiting on the announcement that we can build stations and titans.

Recording a battle report of 50 ships going boom inside a POS or whilst under fire doesn't seem accurate, that's not battle, that's one side cutting losses and reducing loot.
Yeah, for some reason I don't have one.
I wouldn't even describe the kills I have as battles either so haven't chased it up.
This I do agree with. They are part of a battle so should be recorded, even if it's just a "HP repaired" figure underneath damage taken. or remote repper icons above the aggressor in a killmail.
Because you did NOT kill it, it exploded at the expressed and delayed decision of the pilot.

No, the majority of corps that like WSpace because its WSpace would probably leave, we chose not to live in null for a reason.

Also, OP, Post with your main...its all the rage, I hear everybody's doing it.

I meant that if the wh mechanics changes to something similar to empire space (wh stabilizer = gates) it wouldn't take long for major null sec coalitions to invade the wh isk printing machine.

its not about the effort, its the lack of reward. invading nova can be done. im pretty sure every major alliance has at least considered it at some point. the problem is the massive effort. sure we can seed 40 capitals in there over time, bring fleets, get control and over the course of time burn it to the ground (im not saying my alliance can, or any alliance can, but its possible in theory), but to what end? nova itself is as useless as the next c6 static c6 that is empty. if we wanted that, its easier to move into one that is empty instead of fighting one of the best defended systems in game. so why would we attack? loot? i dont know what aharm will do, but if they decide to SD their stuff, the loot will be fck all. the only reason to invade a system like nova, or any of the other home systems of the major alliances is just because you dislike them or want to make a point

so back to self destruct. remove it from pos. make people stand and fight, or loose stuff. give me an incentive to do the massive logistical work. selfdestruct removes any reward part on the part of the attacker from the game. if we catch you in a c5 running sites, we usualy spend hours collapsing to find that one system with people doing stuff. if we attack your pos, we spend a lot of time and effort with scouts, seeding caps, scanning entrences etc. why dont we get a reward for it

Because mittens wants to monopolize nano ribbons and c320 production as well as literally print isk with blue loot?

the wh stabilizer isnt still a real suggestion as far as i know. it made me write the wall of text and gets mentioned

and i think the RnK guy was actually wanting it.