EVE General Discussion

You mean like understanding similes?

What you're talking about is meta-game. It's the competitions players create outside of the game out of things that are not subject to competition in-game. By that metric, everything ever done in the history of mankind is PvP. It's just how we're wired. The problem with that kind of definition is that it makes the term meaningless. Granted, it's hard to make good recruiting propaganda out of ship spinning, but it's still on that same meta-level. The actual competition does not exist within the game.

The market PvP in EVE is an in-game, universe-spanning competition over resource against everyone else in that universe. On top of that, you can also add the meta-game angle, but the in-game PvP still underpins it unlike your examples. So no, killing a boss first is not like the market.

…but it applies equally to those who get the stuff — you are not competing over resources because one person getting it does not preclude another person from getting it (since the instances are unconnected).

Instancing inherently precludes a competition over resources because everyone gets their own shot, same as everyone else and independent of everyone else.

Such as…?

And most of us here still don't care about other MMO's. We're talking about EVE, not some silly fantasy MMO.

This kids is why you shouldn't take drugs

Tal

It's not my fault if both of you can't grasp what makes EvE a PvP game and what is just common background with most other MMOs including PvE ones. Sorry for bringing in something beyond your cognitive sphere.

If it's the last loaf, the next guy may feel inclined to differ from you...

Man, you guys are taking this way too serious.

I'm going over to Features & Ideas for awhile...they don't take anything serious over there.

…which is nonsensical how?

Good thing that nothing of the kind was said then.

What I'm saying is that everything in EVE is PvP. Whether or not it exists in other games is utterly and completely irrelevant to this fundamental truth. Everything you do in EVE is done in competition with other players. If you get something, someone else is not getting the same thing. This is completely the opposite of an instanced game (indeed, it's part of why instanced games are instanced: so that you can get the same thing without having to beat me to the punch).

Yes, surrounding many other games, there is a meta-game where players compete for bragging rights of various kinds, but being a meta-game, that competition does not actually exist in the game itself. It's players competing over who's doing PvE content “the best”. This is something vastly different than the content itself being PvP, as is the case in EVE.

The reason the activities have to be seen as PvP in EVE is because they all unavoidably (by design) entail competition over resources — player vs. player. In those other games, the activities do not have this mutually exclusive outcomes: in EVE, if player A has item X, then player B does not (or, in drastic cases, neither of them gets it and X is lost forever). In an instanced game, both A and B can go after X and both can get it at the same time. There is no exclusivity. There might be rarity, but that's a completely different thing (and you have that in EVE as well, on top of the exclusivity and/or scarcity).

There are a few activities in EVE that conceivably might not be PvP — e.g. ship spinning — but those fall into the same meta-gaming category as you exemplify and, should someone start a league for it, will become a PvP meta game as well. Any kind of “e-peen” statistic can be turned into this, but that's all out-of-game. It's the in-game stuff we're talking about here, and the in-game stuff in those other games is frequently not subject to the same competitive mechanics that surround the same (or similar) activity in EVE.

No, it's you denying the next customer some amount of bread (or, more accurately, ore). Again: in the completely separate and unconnected context of mining, buying ore off the market would be a non-PvP way of getting ore — you are getting the stuff without denying the other miners in the belt any of the ore that are in the asteroids. Unfortunately, “completely separate and unconnected” does not exist in the EVE vocabulary, so what you're actually doing is denying people ore on the market, because it, too, is PvP. You can (almost) always step outside the current context and get similar stuff somewhere else, but that always entails entering a different context where the same kind scarcity exists and where you now have to compete through other means. The opposite of the above example would be that, instead of competing for resources on the market, you say “screw these 0.01:ers — I'm going mining” — you get the ore in a non-market-PvP way (but doing so means you're now competing in the belts instead).

…hell, even NPC buy and sell orders — which you'd think were the ultimate form of PvE — are subject to this since they go up and down in price as batches are sold out (or left untouched), so using them means you've potentially altered the prices for other players coming after you.

What I am saying is that EvE has player killing as only true PvP game defining trait.
All the other games have what you call PvP / resources competition, even the pure PvE ones.
So saying that the latter show how EvE is PvP centric is not a valid argument, since every other game then may be called as much PvP-centric.




1) Not all the games are instanced. I don't recall instances in Entropia. And I am sure there are no instances at all EVER in Istaria. The latter is the purest PvE game yet people (when I played it) had all sorts of competitions, dirty tricks and arguments all over those resources. A guild simply could not build a T6 guild plot if another monopolized the super-scarce required resources. That's as competition over resources as it gets in EvE.

2) Even in instanced games, the second you can take out anything not player bound, that something becomes a resource used to compete with. I made a blatant example with orange ingots used to make legendary weapons but there are many more (i.e. enchantments components only dropping in there and so on). Those gave potent competitive edge over everybody else, even those in the allied realm.




Players are the content of a MMO, even more than in game items or features.
Also, define which kind of content in PvE is PvP, since items and markets are something even the most PvE game abounds with and give a competitive edge to their users exactly like they do in EvE.




Besides moons - and only rare moons that can all be grabbed by the same entity - which other resource is exactly so exclusive in EvE that only 1 winner can have it?

To me what it seems is that not only you act smug and know it all, but you also put the same l33t tabard on top of EvE.
I am sorry to delude you, EvE has some unique features (like being single sharded and allowing huge battles) but when we come to PvE and PvP, EvE is actually an average MMO.
There are harsher games, there are games with higher learning curve, with harsher consequences, with better crafting and even with more skillful PvP strategies.

Then there are no pure PvE games. That's the most PvE game possible (no battlegrounds, no 1v1 nothing).
Yet it implements both rarity and scarcity. Hence EvE features that implement rarity and scarcity are not PvP game defining traints.




Except Entropia, except Warhammer and who knows how many others.




Asteroids respawn. Even WoW minerals - they are not instanced and are globally available and visible to anyone - they respawn and the good ones tend to be taken quite fast. EvE is not PvP-unique because of minerals as other games even WoW have scarcity.





You are generalizing about stuff you don't seem to totally know about.

I fit the description of highsec carebear, so heres my view.

1. I was quietly mining ice in my mack, when three caldari destroyers warped in on me.

I hadn't bothered to move away from the warp in point, but i had aligned and was rigged for max defence instead of max ice. with my shield rep running i lasted long enough to warp out and watch them pop as concorde executed them.

I had analysed the risk to benefit ratio in light of goons bounty on mining ships and took precautions. Yes isk per hour was less, but thats the price i paid to be safer (note safer not safe)

2. I was moving about 200 million isks worth of gear through highsec in a badger II and got one shot suicide ganked by someone.

I had analysed my route, decided not to use a tougher ship or ask my corp for spotters. I thought the risk was small...it wasnt. I lost 200 mill of cargo.. oops

3. Im swanning around in my mission ship in the middle of a mission, when in warps a ship and proceeds to sit on top of the mission target can (which wont open untill i kill the last of the ships). Now I'm not stupid, i know when i kill the last ship he's going to open the can, take the mission item and ransom it to me. Not much i can do about that..... or is there... well actually yes. I turn of my guns and sit there nose to nose with his ship and read a book with my tank holding at better than 80%. Basically I ignore him. He gets bored before i do and buggers off to annoy someone else after 20 minutes. I finish the mission

As an empire carebear I KNOW there are people out there who crave my tears like I crave a night with Lexa Doig. I plan accordingly. It doesnt always work but the bottom line is if you want to spend your time trying to affect my game then thats actually part of the CCP sanctioned game mechanics. I'm not going to get mad, why should I? you out thought me, and I will now plan accordingly.

EVE is a ***** of a game. It brings out the worst in people because after all its just a game. I play my way, you play your way, everyone else plays the game thier way. I deal with it.

The real scum in eve are the ones who think that thier way is the ONLY way to play the game. Get over yourselves