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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#601 - 2012-07-03 18:27:35 UTC
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
It cant happen, that's why they are revamping the mining ships. Dessies are ultra cheap, and a hulk can only carry 5 drones. You can block a single dessie from ganking you, maybe 2. 3 and you're dead, t1 fitted.
T1 huh…

So we're looking at <400 DPS over 20 seconds in 0.5, or 8,000 per ship. That means you can quite trivially survive 3–4 of them will stand a good chance at 5 with some outside help (or with the aforementioned ECM drones). My EFT claims that they cost a but over 2M a pop, and since you apparently need 6 of them to ensure victory (and even more if we move out of 0.5), so that's 12M per gank… which means we're rather quickly approaching the limits of profitability.

Quote:
Shitloads of people will use the tanked versions. you just won't hear about them, because they won't be crying.
Fair enough. Then again, shitloads of people will use the yield version and still not be crying because they won't be ganked… much like now. The entire threat is rather overblown to begin with.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#602 - 2012-07-03 18:28:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Yes. Let's look at those balance changes:

A way to mine relatively gank-proof, but with poor yield, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.
A way to mine at massive yield, but being weak to attack, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.
A way to mine solo, without a sufficient yield and a sufficient tank, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.

…so as far as balance goes, it just reinforces what we have but makes it more difficult for the miners not to get the hint. Blink

And anyway, you know people will just go for the max yield and still complain that they explode in new and surprising the same way as always.


Hulk can be ganked with low SP and T1 frigate.
Retriever can be ganked with destroyers, T1 modules and average amount of SP.
Procurer can be ganked with destroyer, T2 modules and average to high amount of SP.

So, upcoming change will be very good for gankers.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#603 - 2012-07-03 18:28:41 UTC
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Rats wrote:
CCP are already planning changes to mining ships due to the un balanced nature of the ganking (cost wise), plus a cheap way for douche bags to get their giggles greifing other players.
Yes. Let's look at those balance changes:

A way to mine relatively gank-proof, but with poor yield, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.
A way to mine at massive yield, but being weak to attack, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.
A way to mine solo, without a sufficient yield and a sufficient tank, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.

…so as far as balance goes, it just reinforces what we have but makes it more difficult for the miners not to get the hint. Blink

And anyway, you know people will just go for the max yield and still complain that they explode in new and surprising the same way as always.


Shitloads of people will use the tanked versions. you just won't hear about them, because they won't be crying.


guy 1 - Idea Yo guys, I figured out a way to defeat Hulkageddon! It's called mining in battleships!
guy 2 - Oh yeah? What's the yield?
guy 1 - You won't beilieve this! It's xxxx units per minute.
guy 2 - ...
guy 1 - Well? what do you think? Big smile
*notification: you were blocked by player guy 2*
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#604 - 2012-07-03 18:29:40 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Hulk can be ganked with low SP and T1 frigate.
Retriever can be ganked with destroyers, T1 modules and average amount of SP.
Procurer can be ganked with destroyer, T2 modules and average to high amount of SP.
No.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#605 - 2012-07-03 18:31:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Hulk can be ganked with low SP and T1 frigate.
Retriever can be ganked with destroyers, T1 modules and average amount of SP.
Procurer can be ganked with destroyer, T2 modules and average to high amount of SP.
No.


That's after the change.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#606 - 2012-07-03 18:32:16 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
That's after the change.
Hence “no”.
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#607 - 2012-07-03 18:33:49 UTC
/popcorn lol

Tal

I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#608 - 2012-07-03 18:34:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
That's after the change.
Hence “no”.


So, gankers got that build already so they can test it?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#609 - 2012-07-03 18:34:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
So, gankers got that build already so they can test it?
No. Hence “no” (well, that and the actually announcement).
Joe Hinken
Cetan Consortium
#610 - 2012-07-03 19:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Hinken
I swore I would never publicly get involved in the ganker v miner debate, but I can't sit idlely by any longer.

Jorma, will you just stop already? As much as I hate ganking, the act itself, the people who do it, Tippia and (though I haven't seen him recently) Ruby/Pippa Porto are correct in what they say. You can tank/fly a mining ship in high sec and make it a real PITA, if not impossible, to get ganked. Whether or not you should have to in highsec is a completely separate matter. Your arguments have devolved in recent days or weeks into a blathering mass of bullshit. You, good sir, are the reason people hate on highsec miners. As much as ganking pisses me the **** off, I deal with it.

I would LOVE if they gave the Hulk some more CPU and PG so I could fit a decent, grief-repellant tank on it without any fitting implants. I'm pretty stoked for the upcoming changes to mining barges based on what I've read. I think CCP have addressed a bunch of the issues many people had with the current state of industry, brought to light in no small part by the actions of suicide gankers. As an aside, there's a fun thought; gankers brought these changes into being, but without them, the changes wouldn't have been needed (at least as much). Self-fulfilling prophecy?

Anyway, what I DO is I sit here and deal with what has currently been given to me; what I currently have to work with. Am I thrilled with everything about the game? **** no, but I seriously doubt there are people who are. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing about current mechanics, but for the love of Mike, know when to shut the hell up before you make us ALL look any worse. Bringing up bullshit theorycrafting and whining about imbalancing are not the ways to go about it. IF you HAVE a case, then state it clearly and be done with it. I'm sure anyone who isn't James 315 will listen to it if it makes logical sense.

Apologies if it's an incoherent rant, I got a little worked up reading the same **** over and over again. I tried to keep my opinions in the overall matter at hand to myself as best as I could because I don't have any logical (plenty of emotional though!) reasoning to back me up, but I had to call out Jorma already.

PS: Porto, you wanted a 2km/s ship? My Crane will hit that WHILE CLOAKED Cool
PPS: Only until the MWD cycle finishes Big smile

Brick Royl > bad timing the isk is deflating fatser then a baloon in a cactus shop
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#611 - 2012-07-03 19:08:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:

A way to mine relatively gank-proof, but with poor yield, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.
A way to mine at massive yield, but being weak to attack, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.
A way to mine solo, without a sufficient yield and a sufficient tank, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.

…so as far as balance goes, it just reinforces what we have but makes it more difficult for the miners not to get the hint. Blink


You forgot the fit that gives us the cargohold of a jetcan. Oh wait, there isn't one.

Currently the Hulk can be fit for Tank, or for Yield, if you try to throw cargo space in there you get a complete **** fit.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#612 - 2012-07-03 19:19:51 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
You forgot the fit that gives us the cargohold of a jetcan.
Like I said: you can fit for solo work.

Quote:
Currently the Hulk can be fit for Tank, or for Yield, if you try to throw cargo space in there you get a complete **** fit.
…and funnily enough, one of the more common complaints about the new changes is that you will no longer be able to fit the Hulk for cargo space. Lol
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#613 - 2012-07-03 19:30:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Quote:
Currently the Hulk can be fit for Tank, or for Yield, if you try to throw cargo space in there you get a complete **** fit.
…and funnily enough, one of the more common complaints about the new changes is that you will no longer be able to fit the Hulk for cargo space. Lol

I think it's great. CCP is doing the work for people who do not understand how to fit a ship.

I said a while ago in in-game chat that "when" CCP finally buffs the hulk, they are going to either give us one additional low-slot (that people would instantly try and fit another MLU in), or they were going to screw up the cargo size somehow. Shocked

I'm sure once these changes are put in place, we'll have some interesting fits that come really close to the Hulk in yield. The Covetor can already just about match it now that the Overclock rigs allow for an additional MLU.
Pipa Porto
#614 - 2012-07-03 19:32:41 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Tippia wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Wrong, the belt replenishes itself.
…which doesn't make it wrong: the ore is no longer available to the latecomer and he has to try again when the competition reopens the next day. By your logic, sports is not competition because the tournaments and prizes replenishes themselves.

Quote:
Wrong, only if he does advanced sell option.
No, he affects the prices regardless — buy orders get fulfilled, removing them from the board, which activates new prices.

Whether or not there is another miner present in the belt is entirely irrelevant: the ore is gone and latecomers cannot extract it. The first miner got there first and got the prize (same goes for the buy orders he directly sells to).

OMG, you gotta be kidding. Talk about clutching at straws.

If you really think people are going to buy that load of snake oil,

Lol



Somebody hasn't done their Econ Homework.

Increased Supply absent Increased Demand puts a downward pressure on prices.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Joe Hinken
Cetan Consortium
#615 - 2012-07-03 19:32:58 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Quote:
Currently the Hulk can be fit for Tank, or for Yield, if you try to throw cargo space in there you get a complete **** fit.
…and funnily enough, one of the more common complaints about the new changes is that you will no longer be able to fit the Hulk for cargo space. Lol

I think it's great. CCP is doing the work for people who do not understand how to fit a ship.

I said a while ago in in-game chat that "when" CCP finally buffs the hulk, they are going to either give us one additional low-slot (that people would instantly try and fit another MLU in), or they were going to screw up the cargo size somehow. Shocked

I'm sure once these changes are put in place, we'll have some interesting fits that come really close to the Hulk in yield. The Covetor can already just about match it now that the Overclock rigs allow for an additional MLU.


I'm curious to see how they're planning on bringing the other two ships's yields "in line" with the Hulk (or Covetor for T1). Surely they can't be giving them ALL three high slots?

Brick Royl > bad timing the isk is deflating fatser then a baloon in a cactus shop
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#616 - 2012-07-03 19:33:31 UTC
Quote:
So we're looking at <400 DPS over 20 seconds in 0.5, or 8,000 per ship. That means you can quite trivially survive 3–4 of them will stand a good chance at 5 with some outside help (or with the aforementioned ECM drones). My EFT claims that they cost a but over 2M a pop, and since you apparently need 6 of them to ensure victory (and even more if we move out of 0.5), so that's 12M per gank… which means we're rather quickly approaching the limits of profitability.


1. Always spawn concord to another belt.
2. Every ganker after the first gets 3 seconds; concord kills 1 at a time.
2. Its about 2 mil or so for the t1's, and you get an average of 20 mil a kill.
Pipa Porto
#617 - 2012-07-03 19:39:15 UTC
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
Quote:
So we're looking at <400 DPS over 20 seconds in 0.5, or 8,000 per ship. That means you can quite trivially survive 3–4 of them will stand a good chance at 5 with some outside help (or with the aforementioned ECM drones). My EFT claims that they cost a but over 2M a pop, and since you apparently need 6 of them to ensure victory (and even more if we move out of 0.5), so that's 12M per gank… which means we're rather quickly approaching the limits of profitability.


1. Always spawn concord to another belt.
2. Every ganker after the first gets 3 seconds; concord kills 1 at a time.
2. Its about 2 mil or so for the t1's, and you get an average of 20 mil a kill.


1. If someone goes GCC in your system, it's not safe to be there anymore. Dock up.
2. They may live longer, but the CONCORD cruisers will Jam/Neut/Dronescrew you all at the same time.
3. A meta fit Dessy costs 7-8m now. Ganking has put an upward trend on prices for gank ships. With all t1, you'd need ~6 to gank a tanked hulk (more with ECM drones), so that's at least 12m per gank (and 6 people + scout/looter + Orca)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#618 - 2012-07-03 20:16:28 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Alaya Carrier wrote:

So, care to list what MMOs are PvE-only? By your definitions, no PvE MMO exist yet they are played by the majority of population.


Any instanced based MMO is going to be PvE only. Unless of course it has an auction house, then you could always market PvP with people.


I have been in very hard core guilds in other PvE MMOs. The competition was very fierce on which guild would kill certain bosses first. That's competition as much as market PvP is.

Also, instances drop very epic stuff and recipes that will impact on other players who come after you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#619 - 2012-07-03 20:20:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Joe Hinken wrote:
I'm curious to see how they're planning on bringing the other two ships's yields "in line" with the Hulk (or Covetor for T1). Surely they can't be giving them ALL three high slots?
Sure they can. That's the easiest way to get them all “within acceptable margin” of the Hulk.

Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
1. Always spawn concord to another belt.
2. Every ganker after the first gets 3 seconds; concord kills 1 at a time.
2. Its about 2 mil or so for the t1's, and you get an average of 20 mil a kill.
1. …which adds 6 seconds for a total of 26(ish). If we really want to go into details, that's still only 9.4k damage per ship, so you can still trivially survive 3–4 of them (5 with outside support or a set of ECM drones). So the effect on the number of ships is nil.

2. No, every ganker gets his own spawn, no time added. Actually, that's not strictly true — it seems to take a bit longer for the killing shot to happen (maybe the CONCORD Commanders do what you say they do, but the Captains do not, and it's the Captains that end the actual shooting).

3. Well, 2.21, to be as exact as EFT chooses to be for a total of 13M for the gank, leaving 7M split 7 ways (5 to eat through the tank, +1 to get the kill, and +1 for the guy who moved CONCORD) for a mill each profit for 15 minutes' work… no, I think we're very quickly approaching the limits of profitability here.

Alaya Carrier wrote:
I have been in very hard core guilds in other PvE MMOs. The competition was very fierce on which guild would kill certain bosses first. That's competition as much as market PvP is.
No, that's competition as much as ship spinning is — it does not approach the market PvP. And that would only further reinforce the point that you simply can't play EVE without PvP:ing…

Oh, and instances will not affect those that come after because they will get their own instance (that is, after all, the entire point of instancing).
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#620 - 2012-07-03 20:43:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Alaya Carrier
Tippia wrote:


No, that's competition as much as ship spinning is — it does not approach the market PvP. And that would only further reinforce the point that you simply can't play EVE without PvP:ing…

Oh, and instances will not affect those that come after because they will get their own instance (that is, after all, the entire point of instancing).


You should stick to what you have a clue about.

- A competitive guild that kills a new top instance first will easily grab / steal the best players from the others, which causes tons of consequences, guild splits and even guilds to leave servers (which is a paid function, real money got involved not just a couple of pixels).

- Those who get the "orange / red drops" (beyond epics, name and color changes with MMO) sell the components for insane amounts. To make an old example that all know, in WoW you could loot orange ingots that *each* would sell for an order of magnitude higher than any other item.
That caused some to become extremely rich and able to manipulate the markets, to decide who would get what, to decide which guilds where white or black listed from that stuff. That extends far beyond an instance.

What you believe would only be true if every instance drop was bind on pickup and / or disappeared leaving the instance. But alas, these things come out and impact:

- PvP, even in games like WoW who got the orange weapons would steamroll whatever.
- Markets, selling the components made people amounts that in EvE would be like getting a free T2 BPO.
- Political power and influence on the server, ability to grab the best players from other guilds.


Avoid replying with some of your nonsense, I have been guild leader long enough to have lived all of what I write, in the position of those who sold the components.