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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"
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Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#561 - 2012-07-03 16:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Andoria Thara
Tippia wrote:

Quote:
Even with a full defensive fit up, the Hulk is still a wet bag that can be easily ripped apart just by sneezing on it.
No. With a full defensive fit, the Hulk requires several tier-3 battlecruisers or battleships or a small fleet of destroyers to kill it. That is not the same thing as “sneezing”. It has the same kind of tank as most cruisers — yes, even some of the T2 cruisers.

You'll never get through to him. I seriously think there is a large percentage of miners players out there that have no idea what EHP even means.

They've never downloaded EFT, and if they did they immediately closed it and looked up a fit on battleclinic. They have no idea what their mods even do, they just copy/paste whatever fit they find on the internet.

I don't understand that mentality at all. If you're going to play the game, at least learn about the fundamentals of ship fitting.
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#562 - 2012-07-03 16:30:46 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Please tell us about how mining is not PvP.


Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP.

Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP.


Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP.

Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP.


So, WoW is a PvP game now?


Well you make it sound like taking ore another player could mine or selling stuff is something so PvP game-esque.

Wrong, even PvE games have that.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#563 - 2012-07-03 16:34:15 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

I completely +1 you. Specially the part about time to replace the loss as a measure of risk. It is far more dangerous to fly a Hulk than to gank it as it costs 20x more time to lose a Hulk than to gank it.

And yet miners are deemed "cowardly" whereas the gankers are deemed "elite"... guess WHO made upthat yardtstick.


Funny part is, it's very often the same people who paint miners as risk-averse carebear cowards who'll be the first to say that everything is PvP in Eve - including mining. Add the risk from gankers, and miners should be worshipped as the true warriors of Eve..


Please tell us about how mining is not PvP.


It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons.
Citsatllort
Doomheim
#564 - 2012-07-03 16:36:31 UTC
Of course you won't get a lot of answers because majority of people don't even bother to view this forum. Why would they?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#565 - 2012-07-03 16:37:06 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons.
Problem is that you can't do it for non-PvP reasons.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#566 - 2012-07-03 16:42:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons.
Problem is that you can't do it for non-PvP reasons.


You couldn't do it because, say, you found it kinda relaxing and gave you a chance to do something requiring minimal oversight while you chatted with your friends?
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#567 - 2012-07-03 16:45:42 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons.
Problem is that you can't do it for non-PvP reasons.


You couldn't do it because, say, you found it kinda relaxing and gave you a chance to do something requiring minimal oversight while you chatted with your friends?


Beware you have now engaged into a Tippia never ending, totally pointless perma-nitpicking argument. You'll never make out alive.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#568 - 2012-07-03 16:48:12 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
You couldn't do it because, say, you found it kinda relaxing and gave you a chance to do something requiring minimal oversight while you chatted with your friends?
So why are you mining rather than ship spinning?
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#569 - 2012-07-03 16:51:17 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:

It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons.


Alaya Carrier wrote:

Well you make it sound like taking ore another player could mine or selling stuff is something so PvP game-esque.

Wrong, even PvE games have that.


The intentions don't change the effect actions have on other players.

Let's get something clear: PVP means Player versus player. Player versus player means competition.

When I picked up loot faster than another player in Diablo 2, this was PVP. Even if we were all just killing AI monsters.
When I shot more zombies in left 4 dead than my teammate, effectively "stealing his kills", it was PVP as we were competing for a high score.

A PVE-only game is when any possible action you take has absolutely no competitive effect on another player, whether intended or not.

PVP is competition.
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#570 - 2012-07-03 16:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Alaya Carrier
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:

It's not PvP when people are doing it for non-PvP reasons.


Alaya Carrier wrote:

Well you make it sound like taking ore another player could mine or selling stuff is something so PvP game-esque.

Wrong, even PvE games have that.


The intentions don't change the effect actions have on other players.

Let's get something clear: PVP means Player versus player. Player versus player means competition.

When I picked up loot faster than another player in Diablo 2, this was PVP. Even if we were all just killing AI monsters.
When I shot more zombies in left 4 dead than my teammate, effectively "stealing his kills", it was PVP as we were competing for a high score.

A PVE-only game is when any possible action you take has absolutely no competitive effect on another player, whether intended or not.

PVP is competition.


So, care to list what MMOs are PvE-only? By your definitions, no PvE MMO exist yet they are played by the majority of population.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#571 - 2012-07-03 16:58:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
You couldn't do it because, say, you found it kinda relaxing and gave you a chance to do something requiring minimal oversight while you chatted with your friends?
So why are you mining rather than ship spinning?


Why does it matter?

btw, I'm off to work, so I won't be around to argue for a while.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#572 - 2012-07-03 17:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Alaya Carrier wrote:
So, care to list what MMOs are PvE-only? By your definitions, no PvE MMO exist yet they are played by the majority of population.
Beta-phase DDO was pretty much that, although that probably changed when it went live.

Yes, it's a somewhat rubbish definition — no modern MMO comes out without some kind of PvP mode or content. Most of them rely heavily on the (non-competitive) PvE content as their main draw, though, and get labelled as PvE games for that reason. What makes EVE special is that there is no such content — it's PvP through and through (even in the parts that would be PvE in any other game).

Delen Ormand wrote:
Why does it matter?
It matters because of the offered definition.
If all you want to do is engage in something that requires very little attention so you can just spend time chatting, why mine? If I were to guess, it's because you get some ore out of it… meaning you don't have to go to the market for that ore. That's not a “non-PvP reason” — it means you're changing to competitive arena. You are still trying to get your hand on resources that other players are interested in.

Going to the market would be to “non-PvP mine” — you are getting ore without competing for what's available in the belts (except, of course, that the market is itself a PvP arena).
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#573 - 2012-07-03 17:03:48 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:

So, care to list what MMOs are PvE-only? By your definitions, no PvE MMO exist yet they are played by the majority of population.


Any instanced based MMO is going to be PvE only. Unless of course it has an auction house, then you could always market PvP with people.
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#574 - 2012-07-03 17:05:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
You couldn't do it because, say, you found it kinda relaxing and gave you a chance to do something requiring minimal oversight while you chatted with your friends?
So why are you mining rather than ship spinning?



Maybe, just maybe because he wants to ???, don't know, I could be wrong, just a crazy idea I would throw out there...


Tal

I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#575 - 2012-07-03 17:08:27 UTC
It's like you guys refuse to see what is in front of you the whole time. Let's not call it PVP. Let's just call it competition.

Why do you want to remove competition from certain areas of the game?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#576 - 2012-07-03 17:09:33 UTC
Rats wrote:
Maybe, just maybe because he wants to ???
Yes, but why?
Unless he then immediately dumps the ore and abandons the container (meaning he's literally only doing it to hear the hum of the lasers), he's doing it to get ore… which is unavoidably done in competition with other players.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#577 - 2012-07-03 17:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Andoria Thara
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
It's like you guys refuse to see what is in front of you the whole time. Let's not call it PVP. Let's just call it competition.

Why do you want to remove competition from certain areas of the game?


Some people are very anti-competitive. Even though they are removing resources from the game that someone else could have used, perhaps even their direct competitors in whatever market they are playing, they don't see it as competition.

They don't understand how undercutting mineral prices can affect the market, or how selling ships for less than the mineral value can affect prices.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#578 - 2012-07-03 17:16:33 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Please tell us about how mining is not PvP.


Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP.

Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP.


Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP.

Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP.

Wrong, the belt replenishes itself.

Wrong, only if he does advanced sell option.

Guess you missed the parts where I said how mining actually does become PvP. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#579 - 2012-07-03 17:20:26 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
It's like you guys refuse to see what is in front of you the whole time. Let's not call it PVP. Let's just call it competition.

Why do you want to remove competition from certain areas of the game?


Some people are very anti-competitive. Even though they are removing resources from the game that someone else could have used, perhaps even their direct competitors in whatever market they are playing, they don't see it as competition.

They don't understand how undercutting mineral prices can affect the market, or how selling ships for less than the mineral value can affect prices.


Do they? Shocked
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#580 - 2012-07-03 17:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Thor Kerrigan
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
[quote=DeMichael Crimson]
Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP.

Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP.

Wrong, the belt replenishes itself.

Wrong, only if he does advanced sell option.

Guess you missed the parts where I said how mining actually does become PvP. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP.


When you deplete the belt I wanted to mine you force me to move to another belt. I just wasted my precious isk/hour because of your activity. "Wait until downtime" you say? Why should I take your word you won't deplete it again tomorrow? I want my minerals when and where I log on so I decide to take action and gank your mining ship. PVP.

Your second statement is so wrong even your fellow miners would facepalm. Insta-selling sells it to the highest buy order available to you in that station. You never sell minerals to NPCs, always players. PVP.