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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"
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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#541 - 2012-07-03 11:38:45 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
In other news news, I decided to abseil with out the proper equipment or training & fell out of my harness. I hit the branches of several trees on my way down which undoubtedly saved my life. The ground however, broke my legs, spine & left shoulder & I will be unable to walk for the next several months.

IMO a single patch of ground doing such damage to the human body is just taking advantage of unbalanced life mechanics.

Sounds really stupid doesn't it? That's because life, just like EVE, is not fair.


Extreme sports? If yes, you should know about involved risks and you take those risks willingly.


The Hulk pilot should also know about involved risks & take them willingly. It was just a silly real life comparison though. In truth, I rarely leave the house except to go to work, because life is scary.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#542 - 2012-07-03 11:51:27 UTC
Quote:
1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.

2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1.


Hmm, I haven't locked someone since '08 in FRICK, I guess I can answer these.

1: Not really about ISK, more about the transference of ISK into goods. So, losing a ship is more about losing a ship than the ISK is costs to get it back. As I keep ships for long periods of time and spin them in stations whilst talking to people, or flying past Chribba in Amarr, I doubt losing a ship is gonna happen anytime soon.

2: 10% Return On Investment.

I put 100 mill into something, I should get 110 mill back.

If I invest time into something, that's much harder to calculate; as far as I am aware, the only way to calculate time fiscally is PLEX.

(30 day plex / 30) / 23 = hourly rate of playtime in ISK (x)

(x * invested time in hours) + 10% = acceptable ROI for EVE activities directed related to bearin'.


10% is reasonable, as the EVE Economy pretty much has this cost percentile built-in to a lot of station services and trading/industrial activites.

AK


This space for rent.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#543 - 2012-07-03 11:53:29 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Please tell us about how mining is not PvP.


Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP.

Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#544 - 2012-07-03 12:47:19 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Please tell us about how mining is not PvP.


Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP.

Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP.


Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP.

Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#545 - 2012-07-03 12:49:38 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Please tell us about how mining is not PvP.


Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP.

Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP.


Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP.

Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP.


So, WoW is a PvP game now?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#546 - 2012-07-03 12:52:35 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Please tell us about how mining is not PvP.


Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP.

Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP.


Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP.

Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP.


So, WoW is a PvP game now?


We're talking about EVE little man.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#547 - 2012-07-03 13:07:55 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The Hulk pilot should also know about involved risks & take them willingly.


So, I should ignore all "tank your Hulk" stuff and go for max yield/cargo?

No.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#548 - 2012-07-03 13:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Thor Kerrigan
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
(...)

Is it really "The Rush" being the only factor you don't like the ship-to-ship PVP aspect of the game?


As I think as him, I wil answer too... it's not just "the rush", it's the impossibility to disincentive it within a ruleset aimed at make abuse as easy and amusing as possible for the perpretators and don't give a **** of the victims.


Even gankers have a predator. It can be the market or other gankers. Or the blob. People who perform under the average always resent those who perform better.

The real question is: are the same tools given to everyone? Since the answer is yes, if your choice is sub-optimal you can only blame yourself.


The same tools? HAH! A miner's tool is a tankless ship worth 400 million and which takes several months to fly, whereas a ganker's tool is a ship the noobs get from the tutorials for free and worth 2 million at most.

Of course, the miner can go sub-optimal and tank the Hulk with a hundred million iSK so it makes a bigger killmail once it meets a gang with four additional hooligans. And then they will have a laugh for the miner's pitiful effort to tank the Hulk.

In order to play his game, a miner puts on the table a giant bullseye worth many hours of his life, whereas gankers put nothing worthy on the table. So, "same tools" my ass.


You seem to deliberately misunderstand my post, but on the off-chance you really did here is what I meant:

Both the "ganker" and the "miner" started with a similar skillset and were told "go play EVE, find your own destiny, dare to be bold...". All play-styles were available to both and only their personal choice made them into the "class" they seem stuck in.

So by your logic, 20 T1 frigates killing one Faction-Fitted Faction battleship would be OP, especially is said pilot was only prepared to shoot NPC rats.

Cost should never be a factor towards immunity. In EVE, ingenuity and cunning reward you far more efficiently than the isk you put in your ship.

Daniel Blackwell wrote:
I would love to go to low sec but since losing all my ships, I'm trying to recoup my loses in low sec.

Also, no matter how much you want to, you can't just dive into low sec from day one because of the freaking skill system.


My RL Buddy who started playing 1 month ago disagrees (doing PI in lowsec).

I also disagree as I was already running level 2's in lowsec in a Caracal before my main hit 15 days.

I don't think it's the in-game skills you should be blaming.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#549 - 2012-07-03 13:13:03 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The Hulk pilot should also know about involved risks & take them willingly.


So, I should ignore all "tank your Hulk" stuff and go for max yield/cargo?

No.


This is relevant how?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Reft Ar'en
Fixers Corporation
Pillars of Liberty
#550 - 2012-07-03 13:15:17 UTC
1. Reasonable amount of risk - I think that differs from person to person. If I were to lose a Raven to gankers or even NPCs, I wouldn't break a sweat. That's what happens. On the other hand, if I were to lose my faction scorp, then I would not be a happy camper. I'd probably hop in my Hawk and go find someone in low sec to vent my frustration on. With rockets.

2. I tend to make around 100mil a day from missions. I run them for a couple hours, usually while I watch TV or listen to music. Hell, sometimes I passively run them while I'm pre-gaming with my friends. Some days, if I'm lucky, I get a story-line mission that gives a T2 implant or something of that nature and I walk away with 300mil or even a PLEX. Those are nice days.

All-in-all, while not the most engaging way to play, care-bearing is entertaining and profitable. Although, for me at least, it's more of a place-holder while I skill up and practice PvP.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#551 - 2012-07-03 13:35:10 UTC
Reft Ar'en wrote:

All-in-all, while not the most engaging way to play, care-bearing is entertaining and profitable. Although, for me at least, it's more of a place-holder while I skill up and practice PvP.


Pretty much. When I'm waiting for a skill to finish training, rather than sitting in a station ship spinning, I sit in a belt and mine some ore. I can spin my ship while making iskies in a belt.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#552 - 2012-07-03 13:37:21 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
I would like to ask two questions to anyone who considers him/herself a "highsec carebear".

So my questions are the following:

1. What exactly is a reasonable amount of risk? In other words, at which point would losing your most expensive ship (NPCs or Players, no matter) result in you going "Yep, I truly deserved to lose that ship and I can only blame myself". Showing emotion - sadness or rage - for such a lose is understandable; such is the nature of the game. So please, an honest response.

2. What exactly is a reasonable amount of profit you should be allowed to make? What is the maximum and the minimum isk/hour that should be available when you perform said activities under you ideal risk/reward ratio you thought of when answering question 1.


--- EDIT 1 --- (after 5 pages) (POST #91) ---

So anyways... 5 pages I there is barely anyone who actually responded to the questions. Is it because the real highsec dwellers simply adapted and are playing the game or because they do not exist?



--- EDIT 2 --- (after 24 pages) (POST #480) ---

I believe the hulk vs suicide ganker topic has been hammered out. Let's keep it to the OP topic please. What I am essentially asking highsec dwellers is :

What, in your opinion, is a proper counter to your "safer PVE" if not suicide ganking or wardeccing.

It easy to call something overpowered or not fair, but what is your idea of fair then? There are many activities in EVE and "getting your killmails" is not the only way to counter something.

I think 100% safety in highsec is not fair while you can still keep supplying isk and items into the economy. It would make highsec income grossly overpowered in regards to other sec regions.


So, after 24 pages the OP finally makes the intent of this thread clear.

In answer to your questions :

1 - NOYB
2 - NOYB

Since this is actually just another thread trying to promote or justify Suicide Ganking of Mining Ships in High Security, the only answer befitting this survey is None Of Your Business.

Now if this thread was actually about a real Suicide Gank, like 1/2 dozen Mercs in Battleships who spend weeks to months tracking a target, using Locator Agents and then scanning said target in system to hot drop and assassinate target in high security, then maybe it would be worth an answer.


If you took the time to read this thread up a little you would see I was trying to avoid the suicide ganking topic, but to your advantage I have decided to overlook the fact you were hasty as this thread has reached 20+ pages.

Let me ask you this though (while we are on the topic); won't nerfing suicide ganking only skew the suicide ganker population towards those who "do it for lols"?

There is 2 types of suicide gankers:

- Those who do it for profit (falls into "honorable" PVP)
- Those who do it for lols (falls into "griefing")

Which group do you think gets nerfed more when the cost increases?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#553 - 2012-07-03 13:38:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Mallak Azaria wrote:
This is relevant how?


I know the risks. But why should I take those risks if I don't want to?

Of course my isk/hr isn't perfect if I tank my Hulk, but I've never played EVE for max isk/hr. EVE is video game and I want to have fun playing it and relax instead of playing it 12 hours a day and taste of blood in my mouth.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#554 - 2012-07-03 13:48:11 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
This is relevant how?


I know the risks. But why should I take those risks if I don't want to?

Of course my isk/hr isn't perfect if I tank my Hulk, but I've never played EVE for max isk/hr. EVE is video game and I want to have fun playing it and relax instead of playing it 12 hours a day taste of blood in my mouth.


So you agree now that untanked hulks are easier targets than tanked hulks?
You also agree that tanked hulks yield less profit but "hey, at least I have less chances of getting ganked"?

Same thing for any other ship class (non-miners): they need to find the right balance between dps, tank, speed and ewar. No ship can have the highest dps, the highest speed and the highest tank + ewar (one USED to have that, called the dramiel. Guess what happened to it)

Mining ships need to only balance two things: mining efficiency and tank. A ship that has the highest mining efficiency cannot have the highest tank. In fact, because of only those two factors, the highest mining yield should automatically have the lowest tank.

But hey, since even those two factors are apparently hard to balance, CCP will be doing that for you soon Big smile

Aren't you thankful? Shocked
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#555 - 2012-07-03 13:54:43 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
This is relevant how?


I know the risks. But why should I take those risks if I don't want to?


No one is forcing you to undock. If you choose press that undock button, you've also agreed to the risks & are now actively taking them.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Kyle Ward
Doomheim
#556 - 2012-07-03 13:57:00 UTC
Without reading either the OP or any posts in this thread, I'm going to answer:
Q1 - Yes, definitely.
Q2 - Probably no, but I'll have to get back to you on that...

The Sandbox, you're playing it wrong!
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#557 - 2012-07-03 14:03:17 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Please tell us about how mining is not PvP.


Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that. If there's another Miner in the same belt mining on the exact same asteroid, then that would be considered PvP.

Miner does quick sell of minerals on market. No PvP in that either. The character placing the buy order is the one doing the PvP with others. If the Miner sets his own price with advanced sell option or travels to sell minerals to highest buyer listed in market, then that's PvP.


Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP.

Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP.


So, WoW is a PvP game now?


Don't even bother trying to get anyone here to understand/accept the concept that labeling a PvE activity as a PvP activity makes every other MMO a PvPcentric game as well. You'll have better luck convincing a wall it's a floor or a ceiling.

John Hancock
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#558 - 2012-07-03 14:08:30 UTC
Price Check Aisle3 wrote:
This is a new and exciting thread that will deliver new and exciting discussion.


With 100+ posts per day on average, it appears your voodoo foresight proved correct. Cool
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#559 - 2012-07-03 14:12:48 UTC
Gives me something to do other than work.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#560 - 2012-07-03 15:47:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
That's your opinion.
…and also a rather fundamental design principle of the game: you choose how to fit it. If you choose to make it weaker, then you are at fault for it being weak — it's not the game balance that makes it that way.
Quote:
Even with a full defensive fit up, the Hulk is still a wet bag that can be easily ripped apart just by sneezing on it.
No. With a full defensive fit, the Hulk requires several tier-3 battlecruisers or battleships or a small fleet of destroyers to kill it. That is not the same thing as “sneezing”. It has the same kind of tank as most cruisers — yes, even some of the T2 cruisers.

Quote:
Miner is in system, goes to asteroid belt, mines Ore, takes it to station and refines it. No PvP in that.
…aside from the unavoidable competition over resources that is deeply ingrained in the game, from the very basics (ore) to the thoroughly complex (trade competition over advanced ships and components). The miner just got to that ore first and denied the other players vying for the same kind of ore the use of this source of the ore in question.