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ECM should be changed or nerfed
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Aoyagi Haineko
Genuinely Exquisite Entities Society
#21 - 2012-07-02 12:26:58 UTC
Kadeyoo wrote:
Please refer to this article for the formulae:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Electronic_warfare_guide

And use PyFa/EFT/EveHQ to determine sensor strength/jamming strength for various combinations.

I know how ECM works. What I don't know is what did you use for calculating the numbers you got. Multiple jammers combined? Racial jammers? All skills on 5? SDA?

Kadeyoo wrote:
It only affects *all* other e-war, *all* remote reps/links/etc, and *all* attack modules (Please don't get me started on F.O.F missiles).

Well, it doesn't affect ECM burst. I kinda included leadership modules in that "etc" there, should have been more specific, sorry. Yes, F.O.F (never used them myself, so I can't argue there, but it is a way of attacking ) or smartbombs. Basically, I used all the "mosts" because I don't like to be incorrect. The fact that the remaining usable modules are near to useless is a different thing.

Kadeyoo wrote:

Does not leave much. You can warp off, fly around, rep yourself, have command processors/warfare links running - but other than that, you can not contribute to the fleet in any other way whatsoever. Right, this is not a problem?

Sure, if you are alone, you are screwed. If not, the ECM ship will surely be down quickly. If not, you've lost. That's the problem? Mere halving of ECM ranges would solve that.

Kadeyoo wrote:
Drones yes, I grant you that. But as you pointed out yourself, they will only do what they were told to do the last time. And attacking the Falcon/Kitsune with drones will be impossible if he's 80km away (drone control range!). Especially since a Jammer will have you locked and jammed long before you can acquire a lock on him, not just because he's likely to have a much smaller signature radius than you, but also because he has the advantage of surprise with the cloak in a Falcon.

Well, 80 is the control range you get without a the augmentor, which at least some people usually have. But yeah, I agree that the range is a little bit overkilled. :)
Wu Jiaqiu
#22 - 2012-07-02 13:03:49 UTC
Move closer....more chance to jam/jam duration. Further out - less chance, less duration.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#23 - 2012-07-02 13:11:54 UTC
Kadeyoo wrote:
lots of figures and percentages.
Any chance you can prove all that?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-07-02 14:06:03 UTC
Kadeyoo wrote:

Let's put this into actual real world numbers:

Falcon has a 65% chance of jamming an Archon.
Falcon has a 65% chance of jamming an ECCMed + Remote ECCMed Guardian.
Falcon has a 75% chance of jamming an ECCMed Bhaalgorn.
Falcon has a 96% chance of jamming an plain Bhaalgorn.



Those maths: I'd like to see them.

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-07-02 14:53:49 UTC
Colonel Xaven wrote:
Kadeyoo wrote:

Let's put this into actual real world numbers:

Falcon has a 65% chance of jamming an Archon.
Falcon has a 65% chance of jamming an ECCMed + Remote ECCMed Guardian.
Falcon has a 75% chance of jamming an ECCMed Bhaalgorn.
Falcon has a 96% chance of jamming an plain Bhaalgorn.



Those maths: I'd like to see them.


I can't get the exact numbers, but he's assumed that he magically always has the right racial jammers fitted. Meanwhile, back in reality... Straight
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#26 - 2012-07-02 19:13:51 UTC
Kadeyoo wrote:
The issue lies within the concept behind ECM overall.

Let's look at each racial electronic warfare capabilities, and compare them:

Amarr:
Energy Neutralization:
Punishes anything with excess cap usage (Active Tanks, Lasers, Hybrids). But it has hard counters like Cap Injectors, which work very nicely against it. (Even if your Harbinger is neuted by a Bhaal, you can still fire your guns and keep points on) - cap easy ships (Minmatar in particular) are nearly unaffected by this.

Tracking Disrupting.
This directly affects gun users, but does not completely block out their damage. Also countered by tracking computers/enhancers/links.


Minmatar: Webs/Target Painters. First one is an annoyance at best, it simply slows you down. Hard countered by MWD and oversized ABs. Second one is a beautiful tool to increase that missile damage, and vastly increase damage against ships that employ a sig/speed tanking technique across your fleet with just one single module alone for example.


Gallente: Scrams/Warp Disruptors. Long points are nice. Extra long points are cool. They merely prevent warp off in case of the point, and also shut down MWDs for the Scram. Again, this is countered by getting out of range. Also, Warp Core Stabilizers do exist (though somewhat situational, but they exist nevertheless)

This comparison is somewhat useless, because the ships are used in different roles.

Webs and TPs: Awesome for supporting supers/titans/glass cannon dreads, and catching nano ships.

Neuts and TDs: Awesome for solo killing care bears, and taking down active tank solopwnmobiles. Also good at screwing with logi.

Scram/Disruptor bonus: Awesome for gate camps, nothing like a 16km scram to stop someone getting back to gate. Also good for kiting and sniper fleets.

Falcons: Useless at stopping people from getting back to gate, useless in sniper fleets, of limited use when fighting capitals (seriously, take a falcon up against two prometheus fit chimeras, see what happens.), needs to refit to match the situation to operate at it's full potential.

etc.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Kadeyoo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-07-03 04:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadeyoo
And for all who want to see the math, guess you fail at reading links and doing math yourselves. Let me do it for you:

Let's assume a standard Falcon fit:
[Falcon, Like this]

800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

ECCM - Gravimetric II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
'Umbra' White Noise ECM
'Umbra' White Noise ECM
'Umbra' White Noise ECM
'Umbra' White Noise ECM
'Umbra' White Noise ECM

Medium EMP Smartbomb II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher

Medium Particle Dispersion Projector II
Medium Particle Dispersion Projector II


Hornet EC-300 x2


(I dare you to comment on high slots, which are obviously personal preference. This is just a base layout)

This gives you 5 Radar jammers at 13.5.
Alternatively, consider a full multispectral jamming rack, at 8.97 each.

Why Radar in this? A couple of reasons. A) You can refit at carriers as needed, B) Intel, C) Wormhole PvP, when all logistical ships are Guardians/Archons, and Bhaalgorns are common as ****.

The formula for total jamming chance assuming using all jammers:
(1-(1-J/S)^n).

J = Jammer Strength
S = Sensor Strength
n = Number of jammers used.

Do the math yourself if you don't trust me, I'm just gonna fill in the chances behind every setup here:

Now for the following ship setups: The first element in each list represents using one respective jammer, the second for 2, and so forth.

Archon: 72 RADAR =>
Racial: [0.1875, 0.33984375, 0.463623046875, 0.564193725585938, 0.645907402038574]
Multispectral: [0.124583333333333, 0.233645659722222, 0.329120637948495, 0.412701025137412, 0.485868689089043]

Guardian: 19 RADAR
Racial: [0.710526315789474, 0.916204986149584, 0.975743548622248, 0.992978395653809, 0.997967430320839]
Multispectral: [0.472105263157895, 0.721327146814404, 0.852890067502551, 0.9223414408974, 0.959004455378996]

Guardian + 1 ECCM: 37.2 RADAR
Racial: [0.362903225806452, 0.594107700312175, 0.741407325198886, 0.835251441054129, 0.89503922454255]
Multispectral: [0.241129032258064, 0.424114854318418, 0.562977482188413, 0.668356298983303, 0.748325223663942]

Guardian + 1 ECCM + 1 Remote ECCM: 76.7 RADAR
Racial: [0.176010430247718, 0.32104118893945, 0.440545021394697, 0.539014932883244, 0.620153112884238]
Multispectral: [0.116949152542373, 0.220221200804367, 0.311415670540805, 0.391945024325016, 0.463056538429379]

Bhaalgorn: 28 RADAR
Racial: [0.482142857142857, 0.731823979591837, 0.86112313228863, 0.92808162207804, 0.962756554290414]
Multispectral: [0.320357142857143, 0.538085586734694, 0.686063168412901, 0.786635074817768, 0.854988052635076]

Bhaalgorn + 1 ECCM: 54.9 RADAR
Racial: [0.245901639344262, 0.431335662456329, 0.571171155294937, 0.676620871206018, 0.756140329106177]
Multispectral: [0.163387978142077, 0.300080324882797, 0.414438785462056, 0.51011244838383, 0.590154184959368]


All ships assumed flying without a Proteus OGB (which is somewhat uncommon anyway)


Now I leave the conclusions to you. But fitting racial jammers is no problem. Refit at carriers, get proper intel, or just know that in Wormholes the only carrier you will see is triage archons, the dreadnaughts you will see is Revelations, Logistical ships will be guardians, and Bhaalgorn is just as common.

Having the right racial jammers on is no magical, simply a matter of using carriers/intel/your brain. If you fly around with one of each racial and a multispec, you don't deserve to fly Falcon.

Conclusion, my original numbers were slightly off - but generally they still represent the underlying problem. A chance of 50% against an Archon is a problem, considering the duration of jams, the massive effects it has on said Archon, and the price comparison. (Generally I don't mind having cheap ships to represent a counter to expensive ships, but it should be within reason. Otherwise I want my Curse to be able to drop a Triage carriers cap in less than 20s too)
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-07-03 05:18:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Colonel Xaven
Kadeyoo wrote:

This gives you 5 Radar jammers at 13.5.

[...]


Now I leave the conclusions to you.



Conclusion: Maximum amount of racial jam mods means maximum chance to jam.

Magic?

OP?

No.

Kadeyoo wrote:

Having the right racial jammers on is no magical, simply a matter of using carriers/intel/your brain. If you fly around with one of each racial and a multispec, you don't deserve to fly Falcon.


So you bring the Falcon only if

1) there is a capital to blob,
2) if you know what race it is AND
3) you got enough time to (re-)fit your Falcon?

You set up the best of the very best conditions to jam a ship and call that "something is wrong with the mechanic". Scratch roaming, scratch lack of intel, scratch equal or more numbers etc.

Funny stuff!

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Ruareve
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-07-03 06:06:39 UTC
I also like the T2 rigs because everyone fits those.


I posted in a different thread about this not too long ago but I wouldn't mind seeing some changes to ECM. How about instead of making the target unable to lock you offer the following options inplace of racial jammers.

Turn one module offline- 60second cycle time (reduced to 45sec cycle with training), short range (20km), maximum one per ECM ship

Lock navigation for 10secs (scale-able to 15secs with training)- 30 second cycle time, medium range (60km)

Reduce RoF by 50% (scale-able to 75% with training)- 15sec cycle time, long range (100km)

Reduce capacitor recharge rate by 20% (scale-able to 30% with training)- 15 sec cycle time, long range (80km)

Overheat module causing 20% heat damage (scalable to 30% with training)- 15 sec cycle time, medium range (40km)


ECCM would reduce the effectiveness of ECM by a percentage between 10-15%. Sensor strength would remain but would only apply to ECM burst modules and the module offliner, all other ECM would operate under the same principals as sensor damps, tracking disruptors.. etc.

ECM birds would get range and cap bonuses but the only way to boost effectiveness would be to train the select skill for those modules.

ECM drones I haven't figured out yet. Should more drones be created to mirror the different options for ECM or should there just be one type of ECM drone like a lock breaker or possibly leave ECM drones as the only thing that would lock out your targeting ability since a smartbomb is an easy counter.


Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/
Aldap
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-07-03 06:12:00 UTC
ECM drones a plague to the game, and only decrease the fun anyone's having in it.

An interesting article about Solo PvP: http://themittani.com/features/new-eden-solo
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#31 - 2012-07-03 07:21:07 UTC
Kadeyoo wrote:
And for all who want to see the math, guess you fail at reading links and doing math yourselves. Let me do it for you:

Let's assume a standard Falcon fit:
[Falcon, Like this]

800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

ECCM - Gravimetric II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
'Umbra' White Noise ECM
'Umbra' White Noise ECM
'Umbra' White Noise ECM
'Umbra' White Noise ECM
'Umbra' White Noise ECM

Medium EMP Smartbomb II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher

Medium Particle Dispersion Projector II
Medium Particle Dispersion Projector II


Hornet EC-300 x2


(I dare you to comment on high slots, which are obviously personal preference. This is just a base layout)

This gives you 5 Radar jammers at 13.5.
Alternatively, consider a full multispectral jamming rack, at 8.97 each.

Why Radar in this? A couple of reasons. A) You can refit at carriers as needed, B) Intel, C) Wormhole PvP, when all logistical ships are Guardians/Archons, and Bhaalgorns are common as ****.

The formula for total jamming chance assuming using all jammers:
(1-(1-J/S)^n).

J = Jammer Strength
S = Sensor Strength
n = Number of jammers used.

Do the math yourself if you don't trust me, I'm just gonna fill in the chances behind every setup here:

Now for the following ship setups: The first element in each list represents using one respective jammer, the second for 2, and so forth.

Archon: 72 RADAR =>
Racial: [0.1875, 0.33984375, 0.463623046875, 0.564193725585938, 0.645907402038574]
Multispectral: [0.124583333333333, 0.233645659722222, 0.329120637948495, 0.412701025137412, 0.485868689089043]

Guardian: 19 RADAR
Racial: [0.710526315789474, 0.916204986149584, 0.975743548622248, 0.992978395653809, 0.997967430320839]
Multispectral: [0.472105263157895, 0.721327146814404, 0.852890067502551, 0.9223414408974, 0.959004455378996]

Guardian + 1 ECCM: 37.2 RADAR
Racial: [0.362903225806452, 0.594107700312175, 0.741407325198886, 0.835251441054129, 0.89503922454255]
Multispectral: [0.241129032258064, 0.424114854318418, 0.562977482188413, 0.668356298983303, 0.748325223663942]

Guardian + 1 ECCM + 1 Remote ECCM: 76.7 RADAR
Racial: [0.176010430247718, 0.32104118893945, 0.440545021394697, 0.539014932883244, 0.620153112884238]
Multispectral: [0.116949152542373, 0.220221200804367, 0.311415670540805, 0.391945024325016, 0.463056538429379]

Bhaalgorn: 28 RADAR
Racial: [0.482142857142857, 0.731823979591837, 0.86112313228863, 0.92808162207804, 0.962756554290414]
Multispectral: [0.320357142857143, 0.538085586734694, 0.686063168412901, 0.786635074817768, 0.854988052635076]

Bhaalgorn + 1 ECCM: 54.9 RADAR
Racial: [0.245901639344262, 0.431335662456329, 0.571171155294937, 0.676620871206018, 0.756140329106177]
Multispectral: [0.163387978142077, 0.300080324882797, 0.414438785462056, 0.51011244838383, 0.590154184959368]


All ships assumed flying without a Proteus OGB (which is somewhat uncommon anyway)


Now I leave the conclusions to you. But fitting racial jammers is no problem. Refit at carriers, get proper intel, or just know that in Wormholes the only carrier you will see is triage archons, the dreadnaughts you will see is Revelations, Logistical ships will be guardians, and Bhaalgorn is just as common.

Having the right racial jammers on is no magical, simply a matter of using carriers/intel/your brain. If you fly around with one of each racial and a multispec, you don't deserve to fly Falcon.

Conclusion, my original numbers were slightly off - but generally they still represent the underlying problem. A chance of 50% against an Archon is a problem, considering the duration of jams, the massive effects it has on said Archon, and the price comparison. (Generally I don't mind having cheap ships to represent a counter to expensive ships, but it should be within reason. Otherwise I want my Curse to be able to drop a Triage carriers cap in less than 20s too)

You realise, I presume, that your t2 rigged falcon is actually fairly expensive? And that with only an 800m plate and no damage control its also pretty pathetically weak.

You might be able to jam a single archon for a single cycle, but the moment you fail you have fighters on you. And that thing is gonna last ~10 seconds.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-07-03 07:41:59 UTC
Kadeyoo wrote:

Now I leave the conclusions to you. But fitting racial jammers is no problem. Refit at carriers, get proper intel, or just know that in Wormholes the only carrier you will see is triage archons, the dreadnaughts you will see is Revelations, Logistical ships will be guardians, and Bhaalgorn is just as common.

Having the right racial jammers on is no magical, simply a matter of using carriers/intel/your brain. If you fly around with one of each racial and a multispec, you don't deserve to fly Falcon.


Ah so what yo're saying is "nerf in-combat refitting" (which CCP tried to do, but people whined), and nerf Amarr.
PhantomTrojan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-07-03 08:38:01 UTC  |  Edited by: PhantomTrojan
ecm is not that overpowered, its barely op. The best way to nerf ecm is by making the jam time depend in the sensor strength of the ship, so a ship with 1 eccm (guardian for example) get jammed 50% with 15 seconds jams or so that the more sensor strength you have, the shorter the jam is. capping at 9 seconds minimun and 25 seconds maximun.


Another way to fix ecm and eccm is by adding a jam time reduction bonus to eccm, something like -25% jam time on t1 eccm, -30% on t2 eccm with a very high stacking penalty. Getting a 14 seconds jam with 1 t2 eccm.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-07-03 09:49:48 UTC
TBH, I'd get rid of ECM altogether. It's broadly balanced these days but it's a horrible mechanic.

1. Move RSD from Gallente to Caldari, with beefed-up bonuses for specialist ships
2. Remove the missile effect from Tracking Disruptors
3. Give Gallente a new ewar of missile tracking disruptors
4. Give Caldari a secondary ewar of remote-repair interference, reducing the range and transfer amount of RR mods.
Wu Jiaqiu
#35 - 2012-07-03 10:11:35 UTC
Aldap wrote:
ECM drones a plague to the game, and only decrease the fun anyone's having in it.


Agree. Just yesterday, I had a proteus tackled on the oso gate. He was ******* me up and my friend couldn't do anything about it. So I just deployed my ECM drones and I left.

I should've died fair and square but there is no honor tackle in ECM drones.

EDIT: Light ones anyway. Maybe only change them to Large and medium sized.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#36 - 2012-07-03 10:23:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
ECM are not OP ; just look the AT X : ECM based team win or lose as much as the others ; in fact, they win less than minmatar team... Based on AT X statistics, sleipnirs are way more OP than ECM, despite minmatar ships being the most vulnerable to ECM.

Other ewar are weak in comparison, but that's because they need a buff.

The problem is that you need ECCM to counter ECM, but you don't need anything to counter other EWAR unless a full rack of modules is jaming you.
Aoyagi Haineko
Genuinely Exquisite Entities Society
#37 - 2012-07-03 12:06:39 UTC
Wu Jiaqiu wrote:
Aldap wrote:
ECM drones a plague to the game, and only decrease the fun anyone's having in it.


Agree. Just yesterday, I had a proteus tackled on the oso gate. He was ******* me up and my friend couldn't do anything about it. So I just deployed my ECM drones and I left.

I should've died fair and square but there is no honor tackle in ECM drones.

EDIT: Light ones anyway. Maybe only change them to Large and medium sized.


I don't know if it change in the past year or so, but I did some testing of ECM drones of all sizes. The only thing I remember is being hugely disappointed. Then the drone calculator made me forget about ECM drones.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#38 - 2012-07-03 13:04:26 UTC
Kadeyoo wrote:
Conclusion, my original numbers were slightly off
They were way off and your new post is also way off reality. You are funny though, which is a bonus.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-07-03 15:59:01 UTC
Where did the bad falcon touch you?
Viribus
Bayraktar Warlord
Aurora. Australis
#40 - 2012-07-03 17:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Viribus
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Viribus wrote:
NiGhTTraX wrote:
Fit ECCM.


ECCM is even more useless than this entire thread

Then use defender missiles and burn at the falcon. If you are seriously having issues killing a <20k EHP ship you deserve to have your fleet wiped out.

To any well setup fleet a falcon is just a nice kill mail waiting to happen. Hell, most falcon pilots will warp off you get drones on them or land a few hits.


Spoken like someone who's never actually used FoF missiles, which is what I assume you mean by 'defender'. Then again, judging by your other posts, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in your ability to understand game mechanics.

If you'd ever actually been in a position to use FoFs you'd know they have a tendency to shoot the Hobgoblin Is orbiting you and not the no-tank falcon jamming you, or, even better, bounce between nearby targets and never actually hit anything. They are virtually always worthless unless whatever's jamming you is the nearest thing to you, which is almost never. "Burning at the falcon" is also only an option if the ECM gang in question doesn't have any hard tackle on you, which is also almost never. So basically your brilliant "counter" to ECM ships is only workable if you're in an untackled missile ship that's faster than a falcon and doesn't have any drones on it. Cool story Hansel.

There's a reason no one tanks falcons: because they rarely get locked, let alone locked long enough to have serious damage applied to them. The fact that a ship can be viably fit with no tank whatsoever is a pretty big red flag that something has gone seriously wrong with game balance. Another big red flag is that it's reasonable to expect someone to fit a mid-slot module that has no other use than to reduce the effectiveness of a single kind of EWAR, and isn't even very good at that.

I don't see how a single recon utterly disabling 4+ battlecruisers at very little risk to itself is in any way balanced. The only people who defend ECM in its current state are people who use it as a crutch for their badness, or who've never been beyond the protection of gate guns.

Quote:
ECM are not OP ; just look the AT X : ECM based team win or lose as much as the others ; in fact, they win less than minmatar team... Based on AT X statistics, sleipnirs are way more OP than ECM, despite minmatar ships being the most vulnerable to ECM.


The suggestion that the alliance tournament is in any way representative of real PVP is hilarious in itself, but I really shouldn't need to point out that AT ships have no need to fit warp disruptors, thus freeing up midslots for ECCM.

Even if someone's bad enough at numbers to realize that ECM in all its forms is disgustingly overpowered, you should at least concede that it's a bad game mechanic at its core. It's completely un-nuanced and doesn't require any skill on the part of the gang it's supporting to be effective. Tracking disruption, for instance, is only effective against certain ships and requires your fleet to pilot differently to become effective, like orbiting close or kiting around, depending on what script is loaded. Dampening can force logistics to choose between not repping (and risk their fleet dying) or moving closer to their repping target (and risk dying themselves). These kinds of ewar change the fight in interesting ways and require the cooperation of your fleet to be effective. ECM is just a straight-up numbers game of "hurr durr my one ship can disable three of yours" and fatfingering F1-F7. They're even colour-coded for the thicksicles that rely on it.

There are so many ways ECM could be reworked into an actually interesting mechanic that isn't universally-applicable but apparently every idiot in EVE thinks that "pres butan, remove ship from fite" is really, really good game design so I doubt we'll see a change any time soon.

Plus any criticism of game balance will invariably be met with "HTFU noob ur just bad xD" so, there's that.

watch me be a scurb and get owned
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