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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"
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Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
#461 - 2012-07-02 14:43:03 UTC
In reference to the OPs original post,

You ask what is an acceptable risk. Undocking a hulk that costs 200 million and having it blown up by a destroyer in less than 8 seconds by a ship that cost 20 million is not what I would call acceptable. A person can not tell when he will be attacked since he is not at war with any corp. He can not fight back at the time since a hulk has no weapons and it would cost him many millions to war dec the offender and pay for mercs who may or may not do a good job. It is honestly much safer to join a 0.0 alliance and mine now than it is to do it in empire space.

You also ask what affect this will have on the game. Ganking is going to attract a certain type of person. Honestly, who decides to join a game simply because he can get easy kills? Is that the type of person you want more of in Eve? On the other hand, if mining is made safer, would more people be willing to play knowing the industrial side had less risks than it does today? Would you want more of those types of people playing Eve?

Regardless of your other questions, think about it from the CCP CEO’s perspective. Do you think the games vision was for empire mining to be as risky as it is currently? Why are there police in empire space but not in low-sec or 0.0? Was empire space meant to be at least a bit safer than low and 0.0? Are there better ores to mine in low/null sec to make up for the risk of mining there? Does CCP really want the game to be so brutal that new players could lose their ships in empire at the drop of a hat?

The bottom line is, will all the ganking of mining and transport ships in empire help the game build subscribers or cause a loss in subscribers? That is the way I would imagine CCP will look at the issue. I build hulks so its not hurting my business but I can see the issue with what is going on from a business standpoint and I know changes are coming.
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#462 - 2012-07-02 14:44:16 UTC
1) Question regarding losing ships.
I have lost a few Hurricanes recently in high-sec which p****** me off. I can replace them but it's hassle. Usually happens when I over-aggro by accident and in combination with being webbed and scrammed the ship turns into space junk. Lost a mammoth a while back from a suicide gank while not paying full attention to what I was doing and having too much attractive cargo in the hold. I don't use a mammoth for that activity anymore. I try to learn from my mistakes. Blink On the other hand if I was to lose one of my expensive ships I would not be at all pleased. It would set me back in terms of time & labour to replace them but I probably would do so. There is risk everywhere in New Eden but if you are diligent for the most part you will come to no harm.

2) Question regarding an acceptable/target amount of ISK profit per month in high sec.
I personally choose not to buy PLEX with ISK but each to their own. I have occasionally bought a couple of PLEX with RL money to 'top-up' but I don't make a habit of it. I 'pay to play' with RL money as £7.50 per month for UK players isn't that much. I can afford it for the fun I get from the game.
I don't agree with your answer to question two as it makes no sense. To only earn enough ISK to pay for a PLEX per month would leave nothing to do anything else in the game. So obviously a pilot is going to have to earn more than 500 million ISK per month in high sec if they wish to play without paying RL money in subs. As an theoretical example of ISK earned in high sec per month If I were to play every day casually an mine for a few hours I would earn about 40 million ISK per day. Which is 1,200,000,000 I thinkQuestion Maths not my strong point. I wouldn't mine every day though as I mix n' math on a number of careers. But I would guess that for the casual high sec player that is an average figure for a month. For an industrialist with spreadsheets or a Incursion pilot who gets in fleets easily they will be earning more obviously.

Havent read all the pages but on the subject of Hulks if you have a half decent tank and are watching local you shouldn't be losing hulks at all in high sec. Low & nul-sec are another matter entirely of course.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#463 - 2012-07-02 14:44:58 UTC
Sivir Iska wrote:
Why answer questions when those answers won't change anything?


Why even post when you don't understand the question?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#464 - 2012-07-02 14:48:00 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
examples: explains covert cloaks, explains the 1 minute aggression timer + running back to the gate advantage, explains agility versus enemy scan resolution, explains how the 360 scanner is your only defense tool against combat probes, suggest scouting, etc.


There's still one thing that could be used in gate camps: dictors and HICs can get very high scan resolution. If for example HIC pilot isn't AFK is quick enough he/she can lock down that mission runner trying to escape that camp.

There just isn't counter for it.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#465 - 2012-07-02 14:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Thor Kerrigan
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
examples: explains covert cloaks, explains the 1 minute aggression timer + running back to the gate advantage, explains agility versus enemy scan resolution, explains how the 360 scanner is your only defense tool against combat probes, suggest scouting, etc.


There's still one thing that could be used in gate camps: dictors and HICs can get very high scan resolution. If for example HIC pilot isn't AFK is quick enough he/she can lock down that mission runner trying to escape that camp.

There just isn't counter for it.


Scouting. I have yet to lose my prowler in such camps. I have yet to see a 23/7 camp. One must accept the fact you can't do everything in EVE all the time, sometimes you must wait for the right opportunity. Sometimes it requires patience.. even in PVP.

EDIT:
in essence, EVE is a intricate rock-paper-scissors game. Everything should have a counter; every counter has it's weakness (another counter), etc etc.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#466 - 2012-07-02 15:09:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Thor Kerrigan
Celgar Thurn wrote:
1) Question regarding losing ships.
I have lost a few Hurricanes recently in high-sec which p****** me off. I can replace them but it's hassle. Usually happens when I over-aggro by accident and in combination with being webbed and scrammed the ship turns into space junk. Lost a mammoth a while back from a suicide gank while not paying full attention to what I was doing and having too much attractive cargo in the hold. I don't use a mammoth for that activity anymore. I try to learn from my mistakes. Blink On the other hand if I was to lose one of my expensive ships I would not be at all pleased. It would set me back in terms of time & labour to replace them but I probably would do so. There is risk everywhere in New Eden but if you are diligent for the most part you will come to no harm.

2) Question regarding an acceptable/target amount of ISK profit per month in high sec.
I personally choose not to buy PLEX with ISK but each to their own. I have occasionally bought a couple of PLEX with RL money to 'top-up' but I don't make a habit of it. I 'pay to play' with RL money as £7.50 per month for UK players isn't that much. I can afford it for the fun I get from the game.
I don't agree with your answer to question two as it makes no sense. To only earn enough ISK to pay for a PLEX per month would leave nothing to do anything else in the game. So obviously a pilot is going to have to earn more than 500 million ISK per month in high sec if they wish to play without paying RL money in subs. As an theoretical example of ISK earned in high sec per month If I were to play every day casually an mine for a few hours I would earn about 40 million ISK per day. Which is 1,200,000,000 I thinkQuestion Maths not my strong point. I wouldn't mine every day though as I mix n' math on a number of careers. But I would guess that for the casual high sec player that is an average figure for a month. For an industrialist with spreadsheets or a Incursion pilot who gets in fleets easily they will be earning more obviously.

Havent read all the pages but on the subject of Hulks if you have a half decent tank and are watching local you shouldn't be losing hulks at all in high sec. Low & nul-sec are another matter entirely of course.


The reasoning for my answer #2 is because highsec income is supposed to be the lowest available in the game. If you take the lowest value on the bar and use that as your "average price", it won't take long before the economy naturally corrects market prices back to the true average, an average that will always be higher than your highsec income.

If everyone in highsec can afford a PLEX + their own personal assets... then this means everyone in EVE can do that. Do you think this is a stable/viable system for the long run?

Wealth is relative and cannot exists without poverty and vice versa.
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#467 - 2012-07-02 15:27:32 UTC
I'll play...

1) Acceptable risk? Just about anything. I even accept the fact that NPCs cheat. However what I find unacceptable is when a NPC frigate hits my BS from 165km for enough damage to take out my shields (see Incursions). This strikes me along the same line of thought as AHARMs Super Weapon exploit, which was taken care of. But it's apparently OK for NPCs to do it, just not players.

When I get in a car to go for a drive, it's an acceptable risk to take considering drunk drivers and teenagers on the road not paying attention to what they're doing. However, I don't go out driving with only three wheels on the car or no oil in the engine. You have to take certain precautions (insurance) and preparations (air in tires, oil in engine) before getting behind the wheel. Just because it's a game like Eve doesn't mean you just sit down and do pew. If you want that try Helllo Kitty Online or Doom or whatever.

2) Acceptable ISKies? It's a game. I don't grind for iskies, so the question is completely irrelevant to me.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#468 - 2012-07-02 15:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Andoria Thara
Thor Kerrigan wrote:

The reasoning for my answer #2 is because highsec income is supposed to be the lowest available in the game.


I disagree. Unless you are talking strictly running PvE content. Even then, it relies on the amount of SP a person has. New players can run maybe one level 4 per hour, whereas a long time player can run multiple level 4s per hour.

Someone can create a brand new character, and run some scams in Jita, making more profit than most new players make in a month, while never leaving highsec.

As far as mining goes, Crokite and Bistot prices have plummeted, making it more profitable to mine highsec ore.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#469 - 2012-07-02 15:38:56 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:

The reasoning for my answer #2 is because highsec income is supposed to be the lowest available in the game. If you take the lowest value on the bar and use that as your "average price", it won't take long before the economy naturally corrects market prices back to the true average, an average that will always be higher than your highsec income.

If everyone in highsec can afford a PLEX + their own personal assets... then this means everyone in EVE can do that. Do you think this is a stable/viable system for the long run?

Wealth is relative and cannot exists without poverty and vice versa.


I disagree. Unless you are talking strictly running PvE content. Even then, it relies on the amount of SP a person has. New players can run level maybe 1 level 4 per hour, whereas a long time player can run multiple level 4s per hour.


New players aside (we don't stay noobs forever), I understand running level 4's in highsec is the "standard" for isk/hour if you are a mission runner. It is the maximum attainable income in that profession. Therefore, this is the standard isk/hour when you compare it to other sec regions. When that income alone becomes "more than enough", what incentive is there to try and raise it (i.e. leave highsec)?

If PVP becomes optional, what is the point in having an income once you have the best available ship available in the game + make enough to pay for a PLEX... essentially giving you the exact same experience as on the Sisi server?

If you achieve perfect immunity and the game becomes free to play.. making 10 mil/hour becomes equal to making 100 bil/hour.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#470 - 2012-07-02 15:41:29 UTC
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Alaya Carrier wrote:
Geezelbub wrote:
Wow, people arguing over commas. P

Mining bores me to tears, BUT with Pyerite skyrocketing am seriously considering mining plag in a .8 sec system.

3 man fleet

Vulture and pilot with max relevant shield leadership skills
Orca seriously tanked and pilot with max mining link skills
Hulk tanked for passive shield resists including rigs and pilot with excellent shield skills(don't need cargo space gonna be right next to Orca)

I doubt anybody will really wanna go to the expense to kill that hulk. They sure won't get any loot.


That setup is redundant. You might want to start to listen from people doing it since years instead of EFT theorycrafters.
It's a cost vs reward thing. You can play harder or you can play better and / or smarter. It's your game.

Having 1 money making ship out of 3 and having it nearly useless might be an improveable experience.
By playing where they should and how they should, there's people making 20M+ per hour per account while you'd make so little you'd still make like when bots were rampant and drone poo in game.



LOL u and all u griefin buddies are the redundant ones. Tell me how you can really think that gankin a T1/T2 fitted hulk with a a few Tier 3 BC's can be profitable? You are griefers, plain and simple and as such should be perma banned. There is absolutely no profit in ganking hulks with tier 3 bc's. Therefore it IS griefing.

And don't bother either Porto. You are a Goon disguised as a ugly girl, or in your other self, Mussolini's fatter brother.


Griefing in EVE does not have the same meaning as in other games. I suggest you look it up.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#471 - 2012-07-02 15:50:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Andoria Thara
Thor Kerrigan wrote:

New players aside (we don't stay noobs forever), I understand running level 4's in highsec is the "standard" for isk/hour if you are a mission runner. It is the maximum attainable income in that profession. Therefore, this is the standard isk/hour when you compare it to other sec regions. When that income alone becomes "more than enough", what incentive is there to try and raise it (i.e. leave highsec)?

If PVP becomes optional, what is the point in having an income once you have the best available ship available in the game + make enough to pay for a PLEX... essentially giving you the exact same experience as on the Sisi server?

If you achieve perfect immunity and the game becomes free to play.. making 10 mil/hour becomes equal to making 100 bil/hour.


That'll never happen, we need ships blowing up to keep the economy going. If one of the 3 pillars are knocked out, this game will fail.

Harvest - Build - Destroy

Also, you need to take into account the amount of time a person has per day to run missions. Someone running missions 5 or 6 hours a day is going to make more ISK per day than a nullsec player who only rats for an hour or two.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#472 - 2012-07-02 16:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
EvEa Deva wrote:
Hate the game not the player

1. Eve Online is a sandbox
2. Real person controls his Eve char

Which one from those sentences in incorrect?

Let's see:
1. Eve Online is not a sandbox. You HAVE TO PLAY it one predetermined way.
hm.... sounds stupid doesn't it? You can do whatever you can (well inside Eve universe)

2. Real person is controlled by his game char
hm... sounds stupid too doesn't it? You can decide what to do and what not to do.

So why hate the game and not person? Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#473 - 2012-07-02 16:04:42 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

2. Real person is controlled by his game char


I am just a clone of my game char, she dictates the hours per day that I spend in eve.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#474 - 2012-07-02 16:44:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmy Zeta
Very interesting question, OP. I've been playing around with numbers a little in an attempt to answer your question or at least try to corner the problem a little more.
I came up with the formula Ratio= Reward / Risk where Risk = (Value x chance of loss).

So, with the Hulk example from above: Let's pretend the player makes an average 40 M isk per day in his 200 M isk Hulk with an estimated chance of 5% per day to be ganked (hell, I don't know, I don't mine).
According to the formula that would make 40M /(200M x 5%) = 40M/10M = 4.
What does the Reward/Risk ratio of 4 mean? It means that by the time you get ganked and lose your ship once, you will have statistically made enough money to buy 4 Hulks.
If we set the chance of loss to 20% and above, the Reward/Risk ratio would get below 1, meaning that your average daily income is not enough to cover the expected losses- so basically, you would be flying a ship that you cannot afford to lose.

So, how would it look with level 4 mission running? Let's just estimate a navy faction battleship for 500M grinds about 50 M isk per day (conservative guess for lazy pilots like me). Chance of loss? Well, until today, I have only lost one single battleship to PvE, so let's just say 1% for well-rounded numbers.
50M /(500M x 1%) = 10.
So, should I really be so inept to lose my Navy Apoc in every 100th mission (=1%), I would still have made enough iskies to buy that very same ship ten times each time I lose one.

Now what would be the acceptable risk/ reward ratio for me personally? I don't really know, but hell, mission running sounds a lot more attractive to me than mining...

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#475 - 2012-07-02 17:11:31 UTC
Also, there is no hulk *debate*. The only chance of survival in a good hulk gank is the chance of an error on the part of the ganker, period. You can pre align all you want, when you get bumped by my "neutral alt", you aint warpin away, you're stayin' and dyin'.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#476 - 2012-07-02 17:34:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Andoria Thara
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
Also, there is no hulk *debate*. The only chance of survival in a good hulk gank is the chance of an error on the part of the ganker, period. You can pre align all you want, when you get bumped by my "neutral alt", you aint warpin away, you're stayin' and dyin'.


If they are pre-aligned, they can insta-warp the second anyone enters the belt. Staying aligned means moving towards a safe spot at 3/4 speed. So unless they aren't paying attention (which happens since mining is boring as @$!*), you won't have a chance to get in range to bump them before they warp off.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#477 - 2012-07-02 17:56:30 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
If they are pre-aligned, they can insta-warp the second anyone enters the belt. Staying aligned means moving towards a safe spot at 3/4 speed. So unless they aren't paying attention (which happens since mining is boring as @$!*), you won't have a chance to get in range to bump them before they warp off.


If Hulk moves at 3/4 of max speed Orca can't keep up with it. Hulk also runs out of strip miner range in around 5 minutes (max range bonus form Orca's range link).
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#478 - 2012-07-02 18:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Andoria Thara
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Andoria Thara wrote:
If they are pre-aligned, they can insta-warp the second anyone enters the belt. Staying aligned means moving towards a safe spot at 3/4 speed. So unless they aren't paying attention (which happens since mining is boring as @$!*), you won't have a chance to get in range to bump them before they warp off.


If Hulk moves at 3/4 of max speed Orca can't keep up with it. Hulk also runs out of strip miner range in around 5 minutes (max range bonus form Orca's range link).

You can have multiple safe spots, but 2 of them are plenty to travel back and forth across the belt with.

Not sure why you would just set it at 3/4 speed and let it go with only one safe spot like you are talking about, that's just silly.

Not to mention, the Orca has a bonus to tractor beam range and speed, so it could just sit somewhere in the belt and tractor in jetcans.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#479 - 2012-07-02 18:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Andoria Thara wrote:
If they are pre-aligned, they can insta-warp the second anyone enters the belt. Staying aligned means moving towards a safe spot at 3/4 speed. So unless they aren't paying attention (which happens since mining is boring as @$!*), you won't have a chance to get in range to bump them before they warp off.


If Hulk moves at 3/4 of max speed Orca can't keep up with it. Hulk also runs out of strip miner range in around 5 minutes (max range bonus form Orca's range link).


Nifty trick: use webifiers to slow down your hulks. Fit one or two on each hulk and have them web each other. They'll move so slow they could mine aligned all day and instawarp at the first sign of trouble.

edit: also, deploy ECM drones while you mine. Those will ruin a ganker's day.


Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
Also, there is no hulk *debate*. The only chance of survival in a good hulk gank is the chance of an error on the part of the ganker, period. You can pre align all you want, when you get bumped by my "neutral alt", you aint warpin away, you're stayin' and dyin'.


If you're willing to throw away a pair of tornadoes to nuke a well-tanked hulk, sure. If you're doing it with a dessie...see the above part on ECM drones.

There are ways to counter every sort of gank but an alpha strike. The counter to those is to make it too expensive and let them pursue less hardened targets.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#480 - 2012-07-02 18:39:02 UTC
I believe the hulk vs suicide ganker topic has been hammered out. Let's keep it to the OP topic please. What I am essentially asking highsec dwellers is :

What, in your opinion, is a proper counter to your "safer PVE" if not suicide ganking or wardeccing.

It easy to call something overpowered or not fair, but what is your idea of fair then? There are many activities in EVE and "getting your killmails" is not the only way to counter something.

I think 100% safety in highsec is not fair while you can still keep supplying isk and items into the economy. It would make highsec income grossly overpowered in regards to other sec regions.