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Does anyone use the Kronos or the Paladin?
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Melted Yeti
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-06-30 23:09:55 UTC
Looking at the marauder hulls it looks as these two are rather lacking, both the golem and the vargur have decent weapons bonuses for the battleship skill, where the paladin and kronos get stuck with a webifier bonus that while it sounds like it would be decent for pvp is rather lacking for the pve role that I assume marauders were designed for.

Am I missing something here? Are there people out there who have made good use of the gallente and amarr boats?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2 - 2012-07-01 00:06:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Marauders struggle in PVP due to how easily they can be jammed (tho they can be quite nasty when they aren't).

Kronos has potential application for PVE as it has both tracking bonus and web bonus as well as high dps but I've not seen it used that much.

Always been a bit dissapointed by marauders as they sound like something thats supposed to be able to do hit and run attacks doing massive initial damage/massive burst tanks but lacking staying ability if the enemy isn't overwhelmed by the initial attack. Tho the golem and vargur do burst tank quite well its still a bit underwhelming for a marauder - maybe a nice big overheat bonus to turrets/tanking modules would round out the role bonus :S
Saile Litestrider
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-07-01 00:15:05 UTC
I know the paladin sees some use. Its main problem is that it tends to get overshadowed by the nightmare. The nightmare's shield tank tends to be more conducive to a ganky fit, the tracking bonus tends to win out over the webbers, and without using a slot, and the skills needed to use it are far more universally applicable than the marauder prereqs. Also it's, you know...

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Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#4 - 2012-07-01 01:45:04 UTC
Saile Litestrider wrote:
I know the paladin sees some use. Its main problem is that it tends to get overshadowed by the nightmare. The nightmare's shield tank tends to be more conducive to a ganky fit, the tracking bonus tends to win out over the webbers, and without using a slot, and the skills needed to use it are far more universally applicable than the marauder prereqs. Also it's, you know...

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QFT

Unfortunately, the Nightmare just does everything as well if not better in most cases. I wish they would A) change up the Paladin bonuses a bit so that it is not so close to the NM, and B) change the model!! (Never was an apoc model fan. Personally wish they went with the Abaddon, but thats just my taste). ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-07-01 02:12:28 UTC
I really like my kronos.

I tried using the kronos web bonus once, then packed the fed web back onto the navy mega and didnt ever try it again.

With the drones and the rails, things tend not to get under my guns, or the drones deal with them fast enough for it not to matter.

so the entirety of the web bonus is wasted. i think there are a few people that do use it but im not sure why, a tc II is better then the web any day. {on that ship}

Something more practical for the kronos would be nice, but i think in the other marauder rebalance threads (of which there are several) had enough people for them to keep the web bonus.

it does however do its job fairly well. its a good ship, im not sure how on par it is with vargur but i do better in my kronos then many people do in their golems.

Ive never gotten a paladin to do anything useful. It needs a bunch of work to really do well.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Krann
Trout Mask Replicants
#6 - 2012-07-01 08:26:48 UTC
I quite like both ships for missions. I do also use a web on both. Sure a tracking computer is nice and there isn't many times things get within web range but it comes in handy on those missions where you are dumped in a pile of cruisers.

I'd take another bonus over the web one still though :)


I didn't get the nightmare due to the lack of shield skills and I already had BS5 in Gal and Amarr. One day maybe.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#7 - 2012-07-01 20:30:04 UTC
The Kronos does suffer rather in comparison to the Vargur or Golem and the Paladin in comparison to the Nightmare...

The primary difficulty from my perspective is that it's lacking in effective damage, primarily in the form of range. The Golem will hit out to 40km (60oddkm with Javelins) with Torps; The Vargur to similar ranges without significant loss of damage. Meanwhile the Kronos spends a lot of its time getting into range with a blaster fit (which is where that web bonus is really valuable) and therefore loses applied DPS, or it can fit rails for about three-quarters of the damage the other two can boast.

If you can guarentee that every target ship will be within 10-15km when you want to hit it then the Kronos would slaughter everything but those types of situation are few and far between.

If both the Kronos and Paladin could apply their short range weapon system with short range ammo effectively at ranges of 40km or more they'd see significantly more use.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#8 - 2012-07-01 22:48:45 UTC
"If both the Kronos and Paladin could apply their short range weapon system with short range ammo effectively at ranges of 40km or more they'd see significantly more use."

I just have to ask why? the paladin and kronos do a bit less dps than the varg, but they are hitting 50km in nearly all optimal where the varg is in pretty deep falloff at that point. and then kronos/paladin can swap to other ammos and hit 100km. although the varg can swap damage types a bit. neutrons with antimatter at 40km would be nice though 1400+ dps muahauuahuha (that was cn anti, 1600+ void)! and 1300+ on the paladin (IN multi). sure sounds nice, but a wee bit op... and what happens when they swap to Null/scorch? and yes the golem hits around 40/60km with its torps, but it is using torps which is a huge pain in the ass. and anyways with jav torps its doing less dps than the kronos/paladin do with long range turrets

kronos is pretty alright, a wee bit more damage would be lovely though. 3x faction damage mods, t2 rof rig, and 5% implants and it doesn't break 1k turret dps (rails). pushing it over that bump would make it a lot nicer I think. and the drone bay is just a bit funny, 125m3, but only 75 bandwidth.

paladin is also a very nice ship. it is pretty similar to the nightmare. nightmare has a bit more gank, but imo I love the paladin as I can fly it mostly cap stable with an omnitank. and at the same time I love the nightmare for its extra flexibility and bit more gank. (oh and most would rather train cal bs 5 than marauders 5, but personally I have both)

the web bonus was more interesting when it allowed for 99% webs, but even then it was a bit weak for pve. A range bonus to webs might be nice. but that seems to be the bhaalgorn's job. what other bonus would go there instead? an optimal bonus I'd think would just be insane on either ship. bonus to tracking comps maybe? some minor drone bonus for the kronos, and I don't even know what on the paladin (imo it really doesn't need changing) I wouldn't complain about a boost,

and anyways a bunch of people seem to think the golem is pretty meh https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=65340 (I agree)

vargur is pretty nice at what it does, but in general I don't like it all that much. I find almost no reason to fly it over the mach, and with the missions I do (caldari space) I think most of the time another ship will do it better.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#9 - 2012-07-02 07:59:52 UTC
90% webs.

That is all.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#10 - 2012-07-02 08:26:05 UTC
p.s the vindicator will be better than the kronos - but i dont think the apoc has the 90% web option on any of its faction/pirate counterparts.
Cfiloruz Xilocient
Not Quite So Sinister
Shadow Empire.
#11 - 2012-07-02 09:53:57 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Unfortunately, the Nightmare just does everything as well if not better in most cases. I wish they would A) change up the Paladin bonuses a bit so that it is not so close to the NM, and B) change the model!! (Never was an apoc model fan. Personally wish they went with the Abaddon, but thats just my taste). ;)

i dont entirely agree on the nightmare being as good or better. they seem to me to be exactly the same ship differing only with the preferred tank and with one being vertical. and the real difference these ships have come down to pilots choice of implants and piloting skill.

i would say that paladin is better. theyr bonuses actually are so close ond amage department that with same skillset on gunnery they do same dps. wiith some TE and TC combo you can have exact same tracking on both ships (while paladin has additional falloff/optimal option)
they even can have the same tank.(while paladins tank is cheaper)



I picked abaddon over apoc ands truggled alot in my young days and it was only to not fly an ugly ship.
Now i fly paladin for like 4 years and i forgive its look only because of what it is capable of.

Once you manage to pull 8 tachyon abaddon solo trough AE bonus room without breaking a sweat having only 2 minutes on the capacitor clock.
paladins will be easy and even more powerful.

Having sub bar paladins compared to nightmare is wrong fit. On a same price tag paladin outperforms nightmare.
Shield tanks are expencive once you go faction.

web bonus.. yeah its kind of meh. i'm supprised to actually see that some people claim to use it, hat off for you.

Having dual TC and a TE on pali makes it track just as good as nightmare with better optimal and falloff.
(45+45km with multis on tachys.) think of it... it is... so..... darn... lazy you never need to switch crystals.... ever....

All the kronos pilots i have flown with in missions have starrted to decline my fleet invites because they didnt like to feel inadequate
(someone post a working Kronos PVE fit please so i could share the knowlege)

@ Kusum Fawn's "It needs a bunch of work to really do well."
no. it doesnt need work.. you need to love your paladin. and the paladin will love you back tenfolds.
Saile Litestrider
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-07-02 10:44:58 UTC
But the problem with saying that the paladin is better (or rather, equivalent) once you fit more tracking computers/enhancers and/or more of other mods is that the nightmare already has more mid/low slots than the paladin, plus it naturally tracks better. You can fit more tracking mods and more heat sinks than the paladin, while sacrificing less. You can get the paladin as ganky as the nightmare, but you sacrifice most of your lowslots in the process, which cripples the paladin, and doesn't phase the nightmare.

In the end, though, it mostly comes down to preference, and at that point you have to consider: the Nightmare's quite a bit quicker to train into than the paladin, and your caldari/shield skills are going to be a lot easier to apply elsewhere than your marauder skills.
pussnheels
Viziam
#13 - 2012-07-02 10:53:43 UTC
Both the kronos and paladin do well in PVE, but they need more attention when you flying them in a mission and with both you need all the support skill to be good or maxed out
the web bonus on the kronos does wonders against cruiser size rats that come into range but if you use it well you should be zble to destroy any rats quicky enough before they come too close for your guns to trackthem
The paladin is my favorite it is not only the best looking of the four but it absolutely shines against its natural enemies (sansha /bloodraiders) and even serpentis go down pretty fast, guristas and angels will just take you a little bit longer

Most important fact is that all your support and gunnery skills should be very good or maxed out if you want the best out of your marauder

i never flown the minmatar one so can't comment on that and the nightmare, well i kill sansha s not fly them

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Arkanon Nerevar
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2012-07-02 12:30:48 UTC
I am actually considering between the 2 ships (kronos & paladin) which one to max the related skills, whichever ship would be for PVE against serp, kronos has the obvious natural dmg bias and its skills have at least some crossover towrds my pvp shenanigans, paladin dosent have the dmg primary towrds serp, but i notice the secondary dmg on lasers is therm so it may not be completely unbiased, paladin max skilling does have much higher relation to my current pvp needs (hellcats) than the kronos ones but the choice between these 2 ships is for my pve activities, dont have extensive experiance of using amarr ships against serp so im asking for anyones experiance in this? anyone actually used a paladin in serp f.hubs, whats the wallet ticks like?

Trust Not in God, but Have Faith in Antimatter
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#15 - 2012-07-02 13:31:10 UTC
Having flown the Paladin for a PVE ship for quite some time, I must say I was very pleased with its performance using MPL2's, though at the same time I did have almost all of the support skills (Armor compensations aren't there YET) at 5. It was a beastly ship, though. I was a bit disappointed that not all of the bonuses were a benefit (webs, WHY webs?) and if it weren't for the pricetag/scan res I'd use it for PVP, but there's T1 ships that have a better performance-to-ISK ratio.

It's a sexy, brutal ship to be punched by, though, I will say that.
McRoll
Extraction and Exploration Ltd.
#16 - 2012-07-02 15:52:08 UTC
The Paladin is a very nice ship in theory but is crippled by 3 things. The first one is naturally its fixed damage type so it only really shines versus Sansha and Blood raiders. The second problem results from these NPC's using tracking disruptors and neutralizers. While neuts aren't really a problem since you can keep range, the tracking disruptors are. I really stopped flying the Sansha blockade mission because it took me so long to get rid of the disrupting cruisers via drones and closing range to actually hit them that I finally gave up on that mission with Paladin- it simply wasn't worth the time invested.

Finally, the Paladin doesn't have the powergrid to fit a rack of T2 Tachs, a large repper and an afterburner. This pretty much kills the ship for me, even more than the other 2 problems. I want to be able to get to gates faster or maneuver to reduce incoming damage and you cannot do this sadly without installing ancillary current routers or investing in expensive deadspace medium reppers.

The Vargur is the king of marauders right now because it is completely unaffected by tracking disruption (because of falloff mechanics on AC's)and other EWAR besides ECM (but all marauders have their problems with it), and has the best damage application due to selectable damage types, high range and good tracking. It also clears frigates and cruisers faster than the others due to highest rate of fire and tracking. You basically don't need any drones with it and that lets you complete missions faster because you don't have to worry about getting into range or wait for your drones to finish off the small stuff. It also lets you fit an afterburner and a full tank without sacrificing slots for target painters or cap mods.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#17 - 2012-07-02 19:05:16 UTC
Cfiloruz Xilocient I'd like to see your paladin fit, as I find it much easier to fit more damage mods and tc/tes on the nightmare than the paladin, well unless you want to shield tank the paladin, and then it comes out to the same amount.

and I wouldn't say the paladin is crippled, em/therm isn't too bad of a damage type. works just fine for drones and mercs as well, seems pretty good for EoM too (going to have to try it in the kronos now). on the enemies abound chain it seems to vaporize ships rather quickly, and on part 5 it can easily kill everything and shoot the gate to the point that you only need 1 more volley when the last group spawns. (guristas missions I remember getting were The Assault and paladin can blitz it fine, and Intercept the Saboteurs, and its nearly all small stuff that you can vaporize, only mission I remember being a pain for em/therm was Angels Extra) as for tracking disruptors, with 2 tracking comps on the paladin you get a pretty big falloff (41km) tbh I haven't done a sanshas blockade with it (that I can remember) but I do remember the TDs being pretty brutal there, but I can usually hit stuff at 30km or so with 3-4 tds on me. being able to fit an AB on the paladin would be pretty awesome.

and I don't know if I'd say the varg kills frigs/cruisers faster. since the paladin will be in mostly optimal it can engage them sooner. also the damage mod is much higher, yea the varg will fire a bit more than twice as fast. although with the better tracking it can wait longer to engage small stuff and deal with it pretty well. If the varg takes 2 shots to kill something and the paladin does it in one, it is nearly even, I'm just thinking with the varg there is a chance it will take 3-4 due to falloff, although it could be 2 paladin shots due to tracking. I'm way too lazy to really find out, counting volleys and making spreadsheets, or log parsing just ain't my thing (also my implants would favor the paladin).

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-07-02 20:52:38 UTC
I feel the Paladin is hurt by the Amarr T2 resist profile (they get no EM/Therm bonuses) and by a web bonus that really seems to serve no purpose. If something's getting into web range, you've already done something wrong.
Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-07-02 22:33:35 UTC
machariel is the only bs you'll ever need
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#20 - 2012-07-03 00:38:15 UTC
To answer one of the above poster's question - I haven't flown paladin, but i have nightmare and kronos in gallente space. I would say that against the serpentis, they are almost on par, but kronos has advantage of faster ROF and less over kill, which comes handy vs. smaller targets. Also the web bonus is good vs. close orbiting cruisers and Angels. When it comes to BS rats though, nightmate has no issue whatsoever with its em/therm damage profile. It does so much raw DPS as not to make it matter, and it can also elavate its longer ROF issue somewhat if you ungroup the guns.

Having said that, if you are missioning in Gallente space and will only use one ship, then Kronos wins hands down due to amount angel missions you get - doing angel missions with Nightmare is truly meh.
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