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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#341 - 2012-07-02 09:50:34 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
It's way bigger than cruiser hulls.
They come in wide variety of sizes.
Quote:
It doesn't have 100k EHP buffer.
Neither do normal cruisers (unless you do to them what you do to the Hulk to effectively give it 100k+ EHP).
Quote:
It has worse align time than plated Abaddon.
So?

It still fits well inside the cruiser bracket, both in terms of how it takes and how it tanks damage, and your litany of goal-post fallacies doesn't change this fact. Mechanics-wise, it's a cruiser when it comes to survival, which is the topic at hand.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#342 - 2012-07-02 09:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Tippia wrote:
Neither do normal cruisers (unless you do to them what you do to the Hulk to effectively give it 100k+ EHP).


Hulk is tech 2 ship. It has tech 2 resists. You should compare it to tech 2 cruisers.

Devoter for example can easily reach 100k with just T1/T2 modules.

Tippia wrote:
It still fits well inside the cruiser bracket, both in terms of how it takes and how it tanks damage, and your litany of goal-post fallacies doesn't change this fact. Mechanics-wise, it's a cruiser when it comes to survival, which is the topic at hand.


Yeah, tanks like a cruiser? Two ships can destroy it before Concord spawns.
Pipa Porto
#343 - 2012-07-02 09:57:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Neither do normal cruisers (unless you do to them what you do to the Hulk to effectively give it 100k+ EHP).


Hulk is tech 2 ship. It has tech 2 resists. You should compare it to tech 2 cruisers.

Devoter for example can easily reach 100k with just T1/T2 modules.

Tippia wrote:
It still fits well inside the cruiser bracket, both in terms of how it takes and how it tanks damage, and your litany of goal-post fallacies doesn't change this fact. Mechanics-wise, it's a cruiser when it comes to survival, which is the topic at hand.


Yeah, tanks like a cruiser? Two ships can destroy it before Concord spawns.


A HIC. You mean the Ship Class that does nothing other than Tank? Really. You're gonna set your stake there?

By the way, a Vaga fit to do its job is hard pressed to beat a Hulk's tank.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#344 - 2012-07-02 10:03:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Pipa Porto wrote:
A HIC. You mean the Ship Class that does nothing other than Tank?


Is there a tech 2 mining cruiser?

Pipa Porto wrote:
By the way, a Vaga fit to do its job is hard pressed to beat a Hulk's tank.


But it does around 590 dps. That's a little bit higher than what you could get out of Hulk if you could fly it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#345 - 2012-07-02 10:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Hulk is tech 2 ship. It has tech 2 resists. You should compare it to tech 2 cruisers.
…such as HACs and Recons and Logis, which commonly sport similar tanks (granted, Logis, being at the opposite end of the size spectrum, benefits hugely from sig tanking so they can take a bit more of a beating than the pure EHP would suggest).

Quote:
Yeah, tanks like a cruiser?
Yes.

Quote:
Two ships can destroy it before Concord spawns.
No. You can stop lying since you already know full well that this isn't true. Regardless, the same holds true for the other cruisers so the Hulk still tanks like a cruiser.

Quote:
Is there a tech 2 mining cruiser?
Yes. They're called logistics ships.
vvv Or that…
Pipa Porto
#346 - 2012-07-02 10:05:43 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
A HIC. You mean the Ship Class that does nothing other than Tank?


Is there a tech 2 mining cruiser?


Yep. The Hulk.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#347 - 2012-07-02 10:12:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No. You can stop lying since you already know full well that this isn't true. Regardless, the same holds true for the other cruisers so the Hulk still tanks like a cruiser.


- Hulk with 38,7k EHP
- 2x T2 fitted Talos
- No logis

Do you really think that Hulk could survive?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#348 - 2012-07-02 10:15:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Do you really think that Hulk could survive?
Yes, since you can easily keep it from being destroyed if you want to. And anyway, as mentioned, this doesn't mean it tanks worse than your average cruiser.

In fact, if you're going to move the goalposts, why not do it all the way: claim that you need zero ships to destroy a Hulk before CONCORD arrives. It's just as true, after all…
Pipa Porto
#349 - 2012-07-02 10:17:35 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
No. You can stop lying since you already know full well that this isn't true. Regardless, the same holds true for the other cruisers so the Hulk still tanks like a cruiser.


- Hulk with 38,7k EHP
- 2x T2 fitted Talos
- No logis

Do you really think that Hulk could survive?


Your Choice not to use the tools available does not make those tools unavailable.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#350 - 2012-07-02 10:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Do you really think that Hulk could survive?
Yes, since you can easily keep it from being destroyed if you want to. And anyway, as mentioned, this doesn't mean it tanks worse than your average cruiser.


Do this:

- Undock
- Go to hisec
- Warp to all belts in 5 different systems
- Answer this question: how many logis you see?

And same goes for Port.
Pipa Porto
#351 - 2012-07-02 10:20:21 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Do you really think that Hulk could survive?
Yes, since you can easily keep it from being destroyed if you want to. And anyway, as mentioned, this doesn't mean it tanks worse than your average cruiser.


Do this:

- Undock
- Go to hisec
- Warp to all belts in 5 different systems
- Answer this question: how many logis you see?

And same goes for Port.


Their Choice not to make use of the tools available does not mean that the tools do not exist.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#352 - 2012-07-02 10:21:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Do this:
No. The simple fact remains: you cannot kill a properly tanked Hulk with two ships before CONCORD arrives. Your decision to not properly tank the Hulk doesn't mean it can't be done — it means your scenario gets disqualified on the grounds of colluding with the enemy.

Again, if you're going to make such a stupid claim, do it properly: say that you need zero ships to destroy a Hulk before CONCORD arrives.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#353 - 2012-07-02 10:25:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Do this:
No. The simple fact remains: you cannot kill a properly tanked Hulk with two ships before CONCORD arrives. Your decision to not properly tank the Hulk doesn't mean it can't be done — it means your scenario gets disqualified on the grounds of colluding with the enemy.

Again, if you're going to make such a stupid claim, do it properly: say that you need zero ships to destroy a Hulk before CONCORD arrives.


Hulk fit you posted earlier has 38,7k EHP
Amount of damage two Taloses can put out within 20 seconds (according to your suspicious research): 72880

38700 < 72880

Try again.
Pipa Porto
#354 - 2012-07-02 10:28:46 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Do this:
No. The simple fact remains: you cannot kill a properly tanked Hulk with two ships before CONCORD arrives. Your decision to not properly tank the Hulk doesn't mean it can't be done — it means your scenario gets disqualified on the grounds of colluding with the enemy.

Again, if you're going to make such a stupid claim, do it properly: say that you need zero ships to destroy a Hulk before CONCORD arrives.


Hulk fit you posted earlier has 38,7k EHP
Amount of damage two Taloses can put out within 20 seconds (according to your suspicious research): 72880

38700 < 72880

Try again.


Amount Repped during that time ~89k EHP.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#355 - 2012-07-02 10:30:09 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Hulk fit you posted earlier has 38,7k EHP
…plus another 86k from RR. 125k > 73k

So no, you can't destroy it before CONCORD arrives.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#356 - 2012-07-02 10:32:40 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Amount Repped during that time ~89k EHP.


As a ganker you should know that taking care of that problem should be priority.

Warp 1 or 2 Nagas @ 200km.
= Dead Scimi.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#357 - 2012-07-02 10:35:26 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Warp 1 or 2 Nagas @ 200km.
= Dead Scimi.
= CONCORD arrives = no Hulk kill.

(We're going to overlook for a moment that, no, the Scimi — or more accurately, the Basilisk — does not die if you do that.)
Pipa Porto
#358 - 2012-07-02 10:40:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Warp 1 or 2 Nagas @ 200km.
= Dead Scimi.
= CONCORD arrives = no Hulk kill.

(We're going to overlook for a moment that, no, the Scimi — or more accurately, the Basilisk — does not die if you do that.)


I feel this strange sense that we've covered this ground with Jorma before.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#359 - 2012-07-02 10:41:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
(We're going to overlook for a moment that, no, the Scimi — or more accurately, the Basilisk — does not die if you do that.)


Yeah, 467 dps at 240 km isn't enough. Try again.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#360 - 2012-07-02 10:44:38 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Yeah, 467 dps at 240 km isn't enough.
We know. Why are you telling us?
It's nice that you realised this on your own and intend to try again, but you don't need to come back and post every attempt.

By the way, you do realise that you're already proving us right by having increased the number of ships required for the gank to four (actually, more like six), right?