These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP: "Griefing" policy question
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#81 - 2011-10-08 16:34:10 UTC

Maybe Obama and Merkel should consult the goons about how to stimulate an economy.

Dum Spiro Spero
veshna wildsun
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#82 - 2011-10-08 16:35:55 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
EnderCapitalG wrote:
So, goons blowing up ships in Eve: Online is now considered griefing?

When it is co-ordinated and malicious yes imo. I'm asking the question tbh. Is it or should it be?

It's not random ganks, it's not war-decs and nor is it 0 v 0 gudfites.

It is DELIBERATELY and CONSISTENTLY interfering with the average empire players enjoyment of the game.

As a G**N, I'm surprised you haven't said "Yes, that's what we do..."


Im an average high sec player and I am enjoying the hell out of what they are doing. If you arent benefitting from this venture then you are not paying attention.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2011-10-08 16:37:53 UTC
Mrs Sooperdudespaceman wrote:
I <3 user generated content and all these forum threads. How many do we have devoted to this now?


I counted 4 in this forum alone, there's more in the industry, marketing, and mining forums too.

Clearly, this isn't enough. We need to step up our game. Next up: Lets empty Jita of anyone not in a station.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2011-10-08 16:58:02 UTC
This thread is amazing and I want to thank Riverini for creating it.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Tjo Sephagen
Perkone
Caldari State
#85 - 2011-10-08 17:03:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Since everyone knows that goons are shrieking brain-damaged baboons with the attention span of a mayfly on meth, I'm sure it shouldn't prove a problem for the intelligent, thoughtful, mature and well-adjusted inhabitants of hi-sec to out-think and out-organise them.


I'm pretty sure that you've misread the history here. Goons are shrieking brain-damaged baboons who have managed to out-recruit, out-maneuver, out-fight and just plain out-survive everything EvE can throw at them. Goons are like a force of nature. Hunker down and hope they get distracted by something shiny.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#86 - 2011-10-08 17:08:14 UTC
Tjo Sephagen wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Since everyone knows that goons are shrieking brain-damaged baboons with the attention span of a mayfly on meth, I'm sure it shouldn't prove a problem for the intelligent, thoughtful, mature and well-adjusted inhabitants of hi-sec to out-think and out-organise them.


I'm pretty sure that you've misread the history here. Goons are shrieking brain-damaged baboons who have managed to out-recruit, out-maneuver, out-fight and just plain out-survive everything EvE can throw at them. Goons are like a force of nature. Hunker down and hope they get distracted by something shiny.



Well then, I stand corrected.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2011-10-08 17:37:40 UTC
ITT: One Empire pubbie tries to claim "ALL OF HIGH SECURITY" = Gallente ice fields. Am I close?

And I'd love to meet the guy that could plan a campaign where "10k-20k" nullsec dwellers could shut down all of Empire, cause I would KILL (ingame, ofc) to be in on that.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#88 - 2011-10-08 17:54:16 UTC
Somebody find, and get rid of The Apostle for me. I find his lack of rationality disturbing.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2011-10-08 17:57:14 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Tippia wrote:
The Apostle wrote:
And for the record, the definition of malicious, consistent and interfering are NOT related to anything economic.
No, but “maliciously interfering with the game experience of others” is: killing people for gain is not an interference with the game experience — it is the game experience. What that sentence means is that you are not allowed to keep people from playing the game; that you cannot target certain individuals and harass them for the sole purpose of keeping them from logging in.

I hear ya and agree on most points but it's this very fine line between "legitimate griefing" and "outright bullying" that I am trying to define. When does repeated and specific aggression against a very small player band become griefing?

What I am seeing is a lot of "single person" references in the replies and we're really down to thumbtacks here. It's a specific type of player in a specific area. It is consistent in that those players who might "normally" fly said ship in said area are being denied the right/ability to do so. Sure they could go do "something else" but so could anyone else being "griefed"...

More to the point is that a single very large, very financial 0.0 enitity can remove the entire spirit of the "relative safety of empire" (I'll accept the finger smacking on this point) for a gain that is described as "economic" when it's fair to say they just want shitz and gigglez.

This is NOT a G**N bash by any means but please take into account that NO other alliance/coalition practices this behaviour.

Tolerated by CCP it may be but by my definition, this unadulterated bullying needs to be reigned in. I'm not asking for "fair" (it's Eve) but there is simply no counter.

And when there is no counter - it's a poor game mechanic.


Outright bullying: the bigger badder person hitting the weaker one. See: the entirety of nullsec.

Also, were I to go randomly gank these people, or, say, organize the same thing in amarr space (assuming I had the pull to do that, which I obviously don't) , CCP would say the same thing, even though I am not in your "protected GOONIE evil class" that CCP wants to keep happy.

Repeat: EVE is almost always unadulterated bullying. Then the weak blob up and, in this case, either switch off of Gallente Capitals or towers, fit their hulks to survive an alpha maelstrom (I assume with perfect tengu booster, t2 field extenders, and faction invuls this is possible? It would make them a juicier target though), or take nullsec space where Gallente Isotope Ice is mined. The funny thing is: they are not even required to tell the pilots about it ahead of time, and yet they had the sense of fairplay to do so. The people still mining for Oxygen Isotopes have decided that it is worth the risk to do so or they are really bad at math and should go somewhere else to mine ice.

Did I mention that EVE is bullying everywhere?
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2011-10-08 18:00:51 UTC
Andski wrote:
The Apostle wrote:
Lastly, all empire POS holders can just change faction. Again, no market for Gallente ice.

Yeah, and everyone that owns an Erebus would just switch to a different titan. Everyone that owns a Nyx would switch to another supercarrier. Everyone that owns a Rorqual would just use an Orca. Right?

Yeah, stop pretending to have a clue about what the **** you're talking about.


If you think the cost of isotopes is an issue to a supercap pilot... it is pennies to the average moros or thanatos pilot. This is the biggest hole in that whole argument. If Gallente towers become less profitable to use than amarr, then people will use amarr. Your average capital pilot probably does not even glance at the price as long as it is within a couple of orders of magnitude of correct.

Try again.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#91 - 2011-10-08 18:06:02 UTC
Xython wrote:
Kehro Urgus wrote:
Lose a hulk recently?


Nah, Apostle is just a one issue wonk, hates goons and is very likely Riverini of EveNews24 posting under a sock puppet account.

However, It is nice to see all these blubbering crybaby threads talking about how the big bad goonies blew up your ice miner bots, though. Keep it up, it's delicious forum pornography.

~ Your rage inspires us to greatness. ~


riverini has to get all of his rage out somewhere since he can't write it up on evenews24 heh

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2011-10-08 18:08:49 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

They don't have to do any mining. They just have to buy up all the available stocks and then stop anyone else mining them.

I rule out the economic argument as total BS. Alway have.

Firstly, the G**N's campaign would have cost 100's of millions, if not billions of isk. The amount of ice needed to be sold to get that back would be staggering.

Secondly, 0.0 POS holders will simply change towers. Sure Gallente towers have moongoo bonuses but it just means more work in the short term. Last 0.0 corp I was in we had 3 months supply on hand. Minor blip. Thus no immediate or short term market for Gallente ice. (most price changes have been speculators)

Lastly, all empire POS holders can just change faction. Again, no market for Gallente ice.

Other reasons?
Restricting Oxy using cap fuels may have a strategic effect but only if the G**N's campaign was sustained for the long term AND they had a view to invade someone. Both is unlikely.


Billions of isk, between 6961 people as of last dotlan update. Lets assume 10 billion isk. Starting ice price is 600, selling is 900.

To make back that 10 billion, they would have had to buy 33,333,333 oxygen isotopes at a cost of 20 billion isk. I am sure that with the amount of speculation and increase in isk prices, significantly more isk worth of isotopes has been moving, allowing both the average goonie, the alliance as a whole, and much of eve that had some level of intelligence to make a killing on this.

Try again.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#93 - 2011-10-08 18:10:23 UTC
Feligast wrote:
ITT: One Empire pubbie tries to claim "ALL OF HIGH SECURITY" = Gallente ice fields. Am I close?

And I'd love to meet the guy that could plan a campaign where "10k-20k" nullsec dwellers could shut down all of Empire, cause I would KILL (ingame, ofc) to be in on that.


Maybe we should talk about this.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#94 - 2011-10-08 18:12:55 UTC
interestingly looking at the jabber channel i think we've pretty much pulverized all resistance

day 1+2 was mostly slaughtering clueless untanked macks/hulks

between then and yesterday mostly supertanked hulks

now, it seems we're mostly killing untanked ships again, I think we're nailing the people who don't know what's going on, while everyone who knows has given up and gotten out

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#95 - 2011-10-08 18:20:00 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
I am sure that with the amount of speculation and increase in isk prices, significantly more isk worth of isotopes has been moving, allowing both the average goonie, the alliance as a whole, and much of eve that had some level of intelligence to make a killing on this.
I was only able to make about 250mil, because I was late, lazy and only kept it up for one evening… Cry

…they need to do this more often and when I'm in the mood for baby-sitting market orders. It's pure griefing that they did it when I wasn't ready!!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#96 - 2011-10-08 18:21:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Demon Azrakel wrote:
I am sure that with the amount of speculation and increase in isk prices, significantly more isk worth of isotopes has been moving, allowing both the average goonie, the alliance as a whole, and much of eve that had some level of intelligence to make a killing on this.
I was only able to make about 250mil, because I was late, lazy and only kept it up for one evening… Cry

…they need to do this more often and when I'm in the mood for baby-sitting market orders. It's pure griefing that they did it when I wasn't ready!!


To the petition-mobile!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Di Mulle
#97 - 2011-10-08 18:25:48 UTC
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Demon Azrakel It's pure griefing that they did it when I wasn't ready!!


Damn, Tippia is so correct - again !

You becoming boring being so true, mate Ugh
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
PyroTech03
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#98 - 2011-10-08 18:37:51 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Puppet Mas'ter wrote:
EVE Stig wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I can think of no reason whatsoever that hi-sec players as a whole should be totally immune to campaigns of organised violence.


In fact it would be amazing if all of 0.0 rose up and decided to kill the carebears in highsec.
Arent there more in 0.0 than Empire? Theres more 0.0 space right?


I endorse this idea. Maybe Mittens can pull it off when all of 0.0 is one alliance

Strangely enough, you have both added to why I am concerned that there is no way to prevent this.

If G**N's can do it now (regardless of how poorly executed it is), what IS to stop 0.0 alliances stomping empire into wrecks? No precedent is being (or likely to be) set insofar as establishing a ruling on it.

And this remains my point of contention. Empire is NOT supposed to be a stomping ground or Thunderdome per se. If it were (as many claim it is/should be) then there would be no need for Concord and no sec status hits for aggression. There is no cry for "safety" here, just a precautionary note as to lack of action against Empire stomping.

If it is allowed (and encouraged) at n degree when do we decalare it has become m degree and intolerable?

When it's NOT G**N's doing it?

What if all of 0.0 did decide to "muscle up"? Is it still acceptable if not even a single empire player could effectively play anywhere!?

It's fine to say CCP has spoken, but if so, why do we need sov chages, cap nerfs, ad infinitum when 0.0 residents say so? They scream broken mechanics and tickety boo, it's fixed.

I'm wearing an empire advocate hat and I'm asking that we need CCP to put in place measures to PREVENT Empire stomping by 0.0 alliances. A precedent needs to be set and this current "op" is a great example.

The intent of Empire is NOT to smash everyone and everything into the ground. But it's happening and there is nothing to prevent it happening on a much larger scale.


That's the point....it's a sandbox and no-where is completely safe. Empire is just as much a target for anything as any other region of space. The mechanics are there to give them their sec-hits and they're willing to deal with it.

The game is PvP. Market, ships, whatever. If you don't like it, go play Wizard 101 or one of those disney MMOs.

If goons gave up sov and moved to hi-sec, does that mean they can do this now? they're still just as large as they were holding 0.0...but if we're saying that, "Null alliances can't do this!" then that would fix the problem right?

Or I can take my alliance to gallente space and kill miners and it'd be ok, cause my alliance hasn't set foot in 0.0....that would be ok by your terms.

Empire is meant to give you a little bit of "control" over your situation. Like living in a big city....you can live on the good part of town, but crime does still happen.

As for not having a counter, here's one for you.

Take your corp...go mine the Ice. Have some of your corp mine, and the other part in PvP fit ships and protect your miners. If goons come in, your PvP fit ships job is to keep them busy long enough to get the miner's out. When they aggress one member, they get aggression on the whole corp. Unless your in an NPC corp....but if that's the case then you have every reason to be alone. (Go join a corp already :D)

TL;DR This is eve. Either think of a way around the problem (my suggestion above) or avoid the problem and move somewhere else or do something different. If you don't like it, go play Hello Kitty or something...

@ All goons: Why did you do this AFTER I sold off a large portion of Oxy Iso's? :(
0ld School
Onslaught Inc
#99 - 2011-10-08 18:54:36 UTC
ITT: Sweet, sweet care-bear tears.
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#100 - 2011-10-08 18:56:05 UTC
I want EVE to keep being a place where you can be attacked at any time within the rules of:

High Sec = You get blown up by Concord (eventually)
Low Sec = You get blown up
Zero Sec = You carve your own empire

Fact is, CCP cannot do much about this currently. It is the players broke it, the players voted for the current CSM, who are all Goons or PL or other "large alliance players". I don't know the current stats, but I think High Sec players still outnumber them by far and should get organized instead of whining.

Vote for a different CSM next time. Otherwise I think that what the Goons do is not "griefing". They do what the game allows them to do fairly indiscriminately against all. I do not say it is necessarily right or cool. To me it looks like simple boredom.

If they had a harder time to get the money to finance such "campaigns" they would not do them. (e.g. they were involved in one of those BIG wars we keep hearing about. Roll)
The easier it gets for the large Alliances to make cash in 0.0 the more "campaigns" they can do.

All I ever did in Zero-Sec is get a BIG wallet. I think that is why I started a new char. ;)

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x