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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"
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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#61 - 2012-06-30 23:30:28 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Maybe PvE/Mining enthusiasts dislike the derision that sometimes follows getting blown up or they see it as a challenge that their ego can not deal with.


I'm not sure it's really about ego, at least not anymore. I think it's more that, rightly or wrongly, they feel bullied. To some extent, I think they're probably right. They're seen as a soft target, and theres a lot of peer group approval to be had from ganking them. I don't see a lot of difference between that and a group of bullies in, say, a school. The dynamics seem pretty similar - find a soft target, portray them as weak/outsiders, make things difficult for them, make them feel unwanted and an object of ridicule, and the whole thing's kind've self-perpetuating after that. The more the bullies see the target bullied and the bullying behaviour rewarded, the more it happens.

With this in mind, I don't think the current hostilities of carebears towards those they see as bullies is mainly defensiveness. A lot of them feel as though they are being made targets by other people who want to push them out of a game they would otherwise enjoy.

Personally, I think they have a point. I think some of the behaviour seen on the forums is basically bullying. I'd also bet that you won't get as many replies from miners as you would otherwise because of this. Answering your questions is basically inviting attack.


While I do see some truth in your words there is more to it than just this. There is self-victimization. If you're being bullied - FIGHT BACK. The same tools that a ganker uses to shoot you are the same tools that are available to you to shoot him back.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-06-30 23:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Denidil wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


Losing an expensive ship to a cheap one isn't something that should be changed. The people losing expensive ships either need to change their habits, move to more quiet areas of space or fit a decent tank that can potentially survive long enough for the CONCORD response.


the ship must be capable of fielding a decent tank


A Hulk pilot that has realised that he needs to sacrifice his MLU's & cargo expander rigs often has said decent tank. They are however, the 1%. I ran in to one a couple of weeks ago that survived 2 shots from an Alpha tornado in 0.5 space. While I got him in to structure, he still survived. Why? Because he fielded a decent tank.

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Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-06-30 23:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Thomas
I figure getting scanned down and poped in mission space about once a week or so to be fine but then I have a lot of other income too.

I think the problem is that a lot of us are useing high sec as a place to just hang out or chill either or to take a break from PvP or real life.
DonHel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-06-30 23:38:57 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


Losing an expensive ship to a cheap one isn't something that should be changed. The people losing expensive ships either need to change their habits, move to more quiet areas of space or fit a decent tank that can potentially survive long enough for the CONCORD response.


the ship must be capable of fielding a decent tank


A Hulk pilot that has realised that he needs to sacrifice his MLU's & cargo expander rigs often has said decent tank. They are however, the 1%. I ran in to one a couple of weeks ago that survived 2 shots from an Alpha tornado in 0.5 space. While I got him in to structure, he still survived. Why? Because he fielded a decent tank.



either the nado sucked, he had good fleet boosts from somewhere, or wasnt making much isk and had nothing better to do?? whichever, good for him hehe
Pipa Porto
#65 - 2012-06-30 23:40:20 UTC
DonHel wrote:

@ Mallak ,

See this is something I see alot that does kind of irk me in some ways, I am a do all player, and once upon a time I was a miner.. yes, indeed I was a rock smasher.. your comment on fitting ships better for tanking, when you are mining.. is BS.. Have you tried fitting out a mining ship, and actually go mining for profit.. until recently, and maybe some points here and there during past cap wars mining wasn't a very profitable source of income as far as isk/hr goes that everyone so loves to talk about. In order to get the most you can to make a decent wage, YOU CAN NOT TANK IT UBER ELEETZ GODZ MODE.. battlehulks are the past, all a hulk does is mine.. not fit to tank against pvp, you can squeeze in some decent tank against rats.. but you are NOT going to make a good wage with a full tank anti gank hulk.. u might as well jut not undock. However your argument on quieter areas is a +1111 comment... Eve is a massive universe, gankers can not be everywhere, sure maybe you have to travel a few extra jumps to make a lil more on ore sales, but doing some recon of areas and looking for quiet yet not to far and secluded system to mine in goes a far way.

Not personally assaulting you on this, you were just the one to make the comment the billionth time to make me give my opinion.

P.S. fk mining anyway .. crap wait, I need my ship to make things go pew pew pop


Tanking your Hulk is only one way to protect yourself from ganks. Other ways involve a little more effort, but allow you to mine with a fully MLU'd Hulk and avoid all ganks. Every single one.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#66 - 2012-06-30 23:42:33 UTC
DonHel wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


Losing an expensive ship to a cheap one isn't something that should be changed. The people losing expensive ships either need to change their habits, move to more quiet areas of space or fit a decent tank that can potentially survive long enough for the CONCORD response.


the ship must be capable of fielding a decent tank


A Hulk pilot that has realised that he needs to sacrifice his MLU's & cargo expander rigs often has said decent tank. They are however, the 1%. I ran in to one a couple of weeks ago that survived 2 shots from an Alpha tornado in 0.5 space. While I got him in to structure, he still survived. Why? Because he fielded a decent tank.



either the nado sucked, he had good fleet boosts from somewhere, or wasnt making much isk and had nothing better to do?? whichever, good for him hehe


A Hulk can be tanked such that no solo ship (aside from a faction fit Talos or similar expensiveness) can gank it. At the same time, it can be tanked such that no gank against it can be profitable (breakeven in .5, loss in higher).

If people choose not to tank their Hulks or pay attention to protect their investment, that is their choice.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
DonHel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-06-30 23:45:22 UTC  |  Edited by: DonHel
Pipa Porto wrote:
DonHel wrote:

@ Mallak ,

See this is something I see alot that does kind of irk me in some ways, I am a do all player, and once upon a time I was a miner.. yes, indeed I was a rock smasher.. your comment on fitting ships better for tanking, when you are mining.. is BS.. Have you tried fitting out a mining ship, and actually go mining for profit.. until recently, and maybe some points here and there during past cap wars mining wasn't a very profitable source of income as far as isk/hr goes that everyone so loves to talk about. In order to get the most you can to make a decent wage, YOU CAN NOT TANK IT UBER ELEETZ GODZ MODE.. battlehulks are the past, all a hulk does is mine.. not fit to tank against pvp, you can squeeze in some decent tank against rats.. but you are NOT going to make a good wage with a full tank anti gank hulk.. u might as well jut not undock. However your argument on quieter areas is a +1111 comment... Eve is a massive universe, gankers can not be everywhere, sure maybe you have to travel a few extra jumps to make a lil more on ore sales, but doing some recon of areas and looking for quiet yet not to far and secluded system to mine in goes a far way.

Not personally assaulting you on this, you were just the one to make the comment the billionth time to make me give my opinion.

P.S. fk mining anyway .. crap wait, I need my ship to make things go pew pew pop


Tanking your Hulk is only one way to protect yourself from ganks. Other ways involve a little more effort, but allow you to mine with a fully MLU'd Hulk and avoid all ganks. Every single one.



that will not save you, you can always be ganked, and always for less cost then your ship.. it's pointless to tank to avoid death by gank is all i'm sayin.. and your cutting into your isk making which is pretty low to begin with
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2012-06-30 23:49:20 UTC
Price Check Aisle3 wrote:
This is a new and exciting thread that will deliver new and exciting discussion.


Unfortunately it has not.

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~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#69 - 2012-06-30 23:49:27 UTC
Oh look...another original thread on a topic that has been beaten to death a gazillion times over. Surely we need this one and a few gazillion more like it. So thank you OP for keeping this dead topic alive and well.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#70 - 2012-06-30 23:50:06 UTC
DonHel wrote:
it's pointless to tank to avoid death by gank is all i'm sayin..
…aside from it letting you survive everything but a highly organised gank that takes far more ISK and effort than the gank is worth, so they'll move on to an easier and more profitable target.
Pipa Porto
#71 - 2012-06-30 23:58:51 UTC
DonHel wrote:

that will not save you, you can always be ganked, and always for less cost then your ship.. it's pointless to tank to avoid death by gank is all i'm sayin.. and your cutting into your isk making which is pretty low to begin with


So then why don't Freighter pilots fill their hold with all the T2 modules they can fit? Because you can always be ganked and it's pointless to avoid death by gank, and you're cutting into your profits by spending more time moving your stuff.

If you fit your Hulk properly, you can't be ganked profitably.
If you fly your Hulk properly, you get full yield, and you can't be ganked at all.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-07-01 00:00:36 UTC
The way this game is set up alot of people mission for a year or two before they feel they can be effective in any form of pvp.

Hate the game not the player
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2012-07-01 00:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
EvEa Deva wrote:
The way this game is set up alot of people mission for a year or two before they feel they can be effective in any form of pvp.

Hate the game not the player
The problem is that, the way the game is actually set up, they're wrong, and that by doing so, they will never be effective because they will always be lagging behind in the two things that really matters: experience and support.

So hating the players who fool them into believing such nonsense is rather appropriate.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#74 - 2012-07-01 00:09:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
EvEa Deva wrote:
The way this game is set up alot of people mission for a year or two before they feel they can be effective in any form of pvp.

Hate the game not the player
The problem is that, the way the game is actually set up, they're wrong, and that by doing so, they will never be effective because they will always be lagging behind in the two things that really matters: experience and support.

So hating the players who fool them into believing such nonsense is rather appropriate.



Who is the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool who follows him?

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Pipa Porto
#75 - 2012-07-01 00:12:39 UTC
EvEa Deva wrote:
The way this game is set up alot of people mission for a year or two before they feel they can be effective in any form of pvp.

Hate the game not the player


I had a corpmate who joined corp, deathcloned down, borrowed a Cane, and was involved in a Supercarrier kill not 45 minutes later.

Goonswarm has dozens of members who have been involved in capital fights their first day in EvE. It takes either 8 or 16 minutes to skill up to tackle a carrier or dread. It takes maybe 6 weeks to skill up to tackle a Supercarrier or Titan.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#76 - 2012-07-01 00:16:34 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Who is the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool who follows him?
The latter might at least have an excuse, not knowing better and all… the former is just malicious.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-07-01 00:48:08 UTC
DonHel wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


Losing an expensive ship to a cheap one isn't something that should be changed. The people losing expensive ships either need to change their habits, move to more quiet areas of space or fit a decent tank that can potentially survive long enough for the CONCORD response.


the ship must be capable of fielding a decent tank


A Hulk pilot that has realised that he needs to sacrifice his MLU's & cargo expander rigs often has said decent tank. They are however, the 1%. I ran in to one a couple of weeks ago that survived 2 shots from an Alpha tornado in 0.5 space. While I got him in to structure, he still survived. Why? Because he fielded a decent tank.



either the nado sucked, he had good fleet boosts from somewhere, or wasnt making much isk and had nothing better to do?? whichever, good for him hehe


He was packing X-type resist mods with shield extender rigs which made him an attractive target. After the attempt he was kind enough to tell me that he also had boosts from off-grid.

I respect any miner that takes precautions.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#78 - 2012-07-01 00:49:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Who is the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool who follows him?
The latter might at least have an excuse, not knowing better and all… the former is just malicious.


I concede the point sir Big smile

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-07-01 01:20:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Delen Ormand
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:


--snipped for brevity--
I think some of the behaviour seen on the forums is basically bullying. I'd also bet that you won't get as many replies from miners as you would otherwise because of this. Answering your questions is basically inviting attack.


While I do see some truth in your words there is more to it than just this. There is self-victimization. If you're being bullied - FIGHT BACK. The same tools that a ganker uses to shoot you are the same tools that are available to you to shoot him back.


To some extent, yes. But then you're saying to those people, "listen, you have to pvp" and they feel forced into that, they're likely to quit. Now, sure you could say "they needed to HTFU" and so on, but I think that sometimes that smacks of blaming the victim. Maybe there is some self-victimisation in there, but that's to be expected (if only bullying could so easily be stopped by saying "fight back!").

Miners that I speak to are generally ok with being ganked. They accept it as being part of the game. What they don't like is feeling like they're not wanted in the game and that one group of people is trying to drive them out. That's what they're facing now, and I really don't think that's either right or healthy for the game.
Infinitio Krystallos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2012-07-01 01:27:09 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:


EVE revolves around ships exploding.


Interesting viewpoint (and definitely OPINION) considering most outside media reporting on the game talk about how it revolves around the "unique player-driven Market".