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Two serious questions for the "Highsec Carebear"
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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-06-30 21:54:16 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


First, you can Tank a Hulk such that it takes more isk than the Hulk is worth to gank with a reasonable number of characters. (You can also fly a Hulk such that you are immune to ganks)

.


i know how to tank a hulk, you can take out a "**** you tanked" hulk with a battlecruiser still.


No you can't. (At least not without Faction or Officer mods on your Suicide Talos, in which case ShockedLol)


When the miners tank properly it's not worth ganking it at all unless you do it for fun. The problem is most miners think they can throw on a couple of shield mods in the mid-slots & still keep their MLU's & cargo rigs.


I don't think that's a problem. I think that's a choice they make.


It becomes a problem when they jump on the forums & demand more nerfs to suicide ganking & buffs for their mining ship so they can keep afk mining in complete safety.

Also ECM drones. Use them & I won't use a Catalyst... I may come back & alpha you in a Tornado though because it's funny.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Cass Lie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-06-30 21:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Cass Lie
Thorn Galen wrote:
Posting in a thread where "Isk per hour" is the only reason people play this game.

I don't.

Nice to make ISK, yes, but if you're making it your bible, your only motive to play this game, then you fail at Eve.

That is obviously true, but one often derives enjoyment from the carrot at the end (now speaking about PvE). I think people saying they do stuff solely because they enjoy it are not completely honest with themselves. If there were no rewards, there wouldn't be that much enjoyment. Hence why isk/effort ratio is important in the game (see massive drop in incursion communities when they became less profitable for a recent example).

I think the OP's questions are clearly stated and make sense. I would be interested to know some honest answers too. One indirect was given so far.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#43 - 2012-06-30 22:08:03 UTC
Cass Lie wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
Posting in a thread where "Isk per hour" is the only reason people play this game.

I don't.

Nice to make ISK, yes, but if you're making it your bible, your only motive to play this game, then you fail at Eve.

That is obviously true, but one often derives enjoyment from the carrot at the end (now speaking about PvE). I think people saying they do stuff solely because they enjoy it are not completely honest with themselves. If there were no rewards, there wouldn't be that much enjoyment. Hence why isk/effort ratio is important in the game (see massive drop in incursion communities when they became less profitable for a recent example).

I think the OP's questions are clearly stated and make sense. I would be interested to know some honest answers too. One indirect was given so far.


Well that's the thing. The actual purpose of this thread is to hear the voice of those who feel EVE is not balanced properly (carebear or not). The questions are merely "where would you drawn the line and why?"

It's easier to draw lines (post what should be done about null/low/high) than to justify why certain changes will not be game-breaking.

I just can't remember pro-highsec carebears ever voicing their opinion as to why it would be better to make highsec safer or more profitable.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#44 - 2012-06-30 22:17:21 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
I just can't remember pro-highsec carebears ever voicing their opinion as to why it would be better to make highsec safer or more profitable.


It wouldn't. In fact, in this thread I propose a tax on all holdings in High Sec. Someone has to pay CONCORD to shoot at the ganker after they blow up your Hulk.

Again, I can only speak for my part. Stop changing ****. Let the miners mine. Let the gankers gank. Let the mission runners mission run (?). Stop asking for changes to the mechanics and start playing within the mechanics.

Insurance nerf = dumb.
Miners sacrificing tank for more yield and then claiming Hulk is untankable and complaining = dumb.
Mission runners flying Officer fit Faction Battleships getting ganked and then complaining = dumb
Threads whining about mining being hard = dumb.
Threads whining about ganking being hard = dumb.

Everyone needs to stop being dumb and play the ******* game.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-06-30 22:25:32 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Second, then you shouldn't have pushed for the Insurance nerf. Before that, people were using larger (more expensive) hulls with cheaper weapons. The insurance nerf made that expensive.


Get your facts straights, insurance was nerfed because it was an outdated, exploitable and endless ISK faucet not because some carebears cried.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-06-30 22:26:02 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Maybe PvE/Mining enthusiasts dislike the derision that sometimes follows getting blown up or they see it as a challenge that their ego can not deal with.


I'm not sure it's really about ego, at least not anymore. I think it's more that, rightly or wrongly, they feel bullied. To some extent, I think they're probably right. They're seen as a soft target, and theres a lot of peer group approval to be had from ganking them. I don't see a lot of difference between that and a group of bullies in, say, a school. The dynamics seem pretty similar - find a soft target, portray them as weak/outsiders, make things difficult for them, make them feel unwanted and an object of ridicule, and the whole thing's kind've self-perpetuating after that. The more the bullies see the target bullied and the bullying behaviour rewarded, the more it happens.

With this in mind, I don't think the current hostilities of carebears towards those they see as bullies is mainly defensiveness. A lot of them feel as though they are being made targets by other people who want to push them out of a game they would otherwise enjoy.

Personally, I think they have a point. I think some of the behaviour seen on the forums is basically bullying. I'd also bet that you won't get as many replies from miners as you would otherwise because of this. Answering your questions is basically inviting attack.
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-06-30 22:31:54 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:


Personally, I think they have a point. I think some of the behaviour seen on the forums is basically bullying. I'd also bet that you won't get as many replies from miners as you would otherwise because of this. Answering your questions is basically inviting attack.


Yes, for 1 miner / whatever crying post there are 50 pro "PvPers" who keep spamming abusive drivel about the whole categories and try to convince that the game is their way or the highway.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-06-30 22:41:56 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:


Personally, I think they have a point. I think some of the behaviour seen on the forums is basically bullying. I'd also bet that you won't get as many replies from miners as you would otherwise because of this. Answering your questions is basically inviting attack.


Yes, for 1 miner / whatever crying post there are 50 pro "PvPers" who keep spamming abusive drivel about the whole categories and try to convince that the game is their way or the highway.


If it wasn't for the miners I wouldn't have nice ships to fly. With that said though, I'm still going to gank miners regardless of how they feel about it because that's the nature of the game. EVE revolves around ships exploding.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#49 - 2012-06-30 22:57:43 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
Most people play games to relax. So any amount of risk above 0% is way too much. Profit doesn't matter if there is 100% risk to lose ship right at the moment when you relax.

eve isn't about relaxing, not CCP intention, that's why EvE isn't like any other MMOs
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#50 - 2012-06-30 23:02:39 UTC
Private Pineapple wrote:
1. Undocking is too risky.

2. I should be able to make billions per hour without undocking. EVE is unfair because I can't do that.


You can in Jita. Lol

Not without risks, of course.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#51 - 2012-06-30 23:11:48 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:


Losing an expensive ship to a cheap one isn't something that should be changed. The people losing expensive ships either need to change their habits, move to more quiet areas of space or fit a decent tank that can potentially survive long enough for the CONCORD response.


the ship must be capable of fielding a decent tank

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-06-30 23:12:09 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Infinitio Krystallos wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
I
Regardless, some of us choose exclusively activities with the least amount of risk - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. This is usually what the carebear label designates: one who engages in low-risk activities.


Your argument is flawed on the get-go by the ASSUMPTION that is has to with risk/reward.

Can it not enter your tiny brains that it is just what the particular person LIKES DOING ?

Stop this idiotic argument and close this ump-teen hundreth Thread about this stupid supposition.


I like ganking the occasional miner. Why should I be stopped from doing what I like?


What are you replying to? I don't see anything in the quote about stopping people from ganking miners..


Were you going to post next that you have no problem with suicide ganks? These threads come around daily. Sorry if experience lets me skip ahead a few posts.


I don't particularly have a problem with them. I'd prefer it if they required a little more skill or the there was more uncertainty involved, but it's not exactly a top priority of mine no..
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#53 - 2012-06-30 23:18:37 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:


It becomes a problem when they jump on the forums & demand more nerfs to suicide ganking & buffs for their mining ship so they can keep afk mining in complete safety.

Also ECM drones. Use them & I won't use a Catalyst... I may come back & alpha you in a Tornado though because it's funny.


HTFU gankbear. shoot things that can shoot back like the rest of us do

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Pipa Porto
#54 - 2012-06-30 23:21:34 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Second, then you shouldn't have pushed for the Insurance nerf. Before that, people were using larger (more expensive) hulls with cheaper weapons. The insurance nerf made that expensive.


Get your facts straights, insurance was nerfed because it was an outdated, exploitable and endless ISK faucet not because some carebears cried.


Wrong insurance nerf. I'm not talking about the reduction in payouts (caused by CCP re-figuring the mineral valuation). I'm talking about the elimination of payouts to those killed by CONCORD.

Regardless of the RP justifications, that was intended as a direct hit on suicide gankers, and brought about by much agitation by the common targets of Suicide ganks.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#55 - 2012-06-30 23:23:02 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:

Yes, for 1 miner / whatever crying post there are 50 pro "PvPers" who keep spamming abusive drivel about the whole categories and try to convince that the game is their way or the highway.


You mean Pro "PvPers" like the Development team?

Kristoffer Touborg/CCP Soundwave wrote:
It isn’t really hard, but I think there are customers that you can lose in a good way and there’s customers that you can lose in a bad way. If people come in and fundamentally don’t like EVE Online, then I think that might be a good way of losing customers. EVE isn’t for everyone. I wish it was, but the reality is that there are some people who just enjoy playing another game more. And that’s not really that bad.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/27/eve-devs-our-game-is-the-mmo-equivalent-of-running-inferno-solo-with-a-naked-barbarian/

Kristoffer Touborg/CCP Soundwave wrote:
I was about to say “Here’s a Rubik’s cube, go f%$^ yourself,” because that’s what we do with EVE Online.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/25/eve-online-devs-on-dayz-elder-scrolls-online-and-whatd-make-them-quit-the-games-industry/

CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.


Jon Lander wrote:

If you pay attention, and you’ve got your wits about you, you can avoid people coming in and ganking, a survival of the fittest kind of thing, and people are now able to actually make a much better living from mining because of things like Hulkageddon and Burn Jita, because minerals are more expensive.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/12/eve-online-interview-betrayal-at-fanfest-burn-jita-virtual-reality-and-the-president-of-iceland/

Jon Lander is the Senior Producer of EvE (He's Soundwave's Boss).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#56 - 2012-06-30 23:23:39 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


Losing an expensive ship to a cheap one isn't something that should be changed. The people losing expensive ships either need to change their habits, move to more quiet areas of space or fit a decent tank that can potentially survive long enough for the CONCORD response.


the ship must be capable of fielding a decent tank


The Hulk can. What's the problem?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#57 - 2012-06-30 23:24:25 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:

I don't particularly have a problem with them. I'd prefer it if they required a little more skill or the there was more uncertainty involved, but it's not exactly a top priority of mine no..


They require exactly as much skill and uncertainty as the victim makes them require.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#58 - 2012-06-30 23:24:53 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


It becomes a problem when they jump on the forums & demand more nerfs to suicide ganking & buffs for their mining ship so they can keep afk mining in complete safety.

Also ECM drones. Use them & I won't use a Catalyst... I may come back & alpha you in a Tornado though because it's funny.


HTFU gankbear. shoot things that can shoot back like the rest of us do


Miners have the same opportunities to shoot back as everyone else.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-06-30 23:29:08 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


It becomes a problem when they jump on the forums & demand more nerfs to suicide ganking & buffs for their mining ship so they can keep afk mining in complete safety.

Also ECM drones. Use them & I won't use a Catalyst... I may come back & alpha you in a Tornado though because it's funny.


HTFU gankbear. shoot things that can shoot back like the rest of us do


Nothing is stopping them from shooting back.

In similar news, I shot a Vindicator a couple of nights ago & he refused to shoot back. I guess I should look for pilots with bigger balls, such as highsec miners.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
DonHel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-06-30 23:29:57 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Denidil wrote:
I don't consider myself a highsec carebear as I do a little of everything, but I know some actual carebears and i'll answer what i think they'd say (not the hyperbole BS that some people expect)

1) suicide ganks should cost enough compared to the value of the target to deter casual ganks, ganks should be generally reserved for high value loot pinatas. "Free KMs" is another issue - loss mails should be issued for Concordokken

2) that is harder to answer. low sec and 0.0 activities should pay more, collaborative activities should pay more.

Ship hull prices should has some connection to how long it takes to mine the resources to make them, and outside of market manipulation situations they do.

However when have an overly bottle necked resource in the resource list for the hull then you have a situation where market manipulation can arise. Unfortunately the most important ship in providing the resources to build all hulls has a bottlenecked resource in its resource requirements, leading to a situation in which market manipulation has inflated the price so a campaign of suicide attacks can take place at a large alliance level profit. This market manipulation would be harder, and there would be much less financial incentive, if the target hulls had EHP more in line with a more realistic amount for a "Deep space 0.0 corp designed vessel".


I don't know any carebear who thinks that Eve should be 100% safe anywhere, the carebears I know are just sick and tired of having bullshit made up about them and constantly worrying about loosing a 200m isk hull to a 1 mil isk hull



Losing an expensive ship to a cheap one isn't something that should be changed. The people losing expensive ships either need to change their habits, move to more quiet areas of space or fit a decent tank that can potentially survive long enough for the CONCORD response.


@ Mallak ,

See this is something I see alot that does kind of irk me in some ways, I am a do all player, and once upon a time I was a miner.. yes, indeed I was a rock smasher.. your comment on fitting ships better for tanking, when you are mining.. is BS.. Have you tried fitting out a mining ship, and actually go mining for profit.. until recently, and maybe some points here and there during past cap wars mining wasn't a very profitable source of income as far as isk/hr goes that everyone so loves to talk about. In order to get the most you can to make a decent wage, YOU CAN NOT TANK IT UBER ELEETZ GODZ MODE.. battlehulks are the past, all a hulk does is mine.. not fit to tank against pvp, you can squeeze in some decent tank against rats.. but you are NOT going to make a good wage with a full tank anti gank hulk.. u might as well jut not undock. However your argument on quieter areas is a +1111 comment... Eve is a massive universe, gankers can not be everywhere, sure maybe you have to travel a few extra jumps to make a lil more on ore sales, but doing some recon of areas and looking for quiet yet not to far and secluded system to mine in goes a far way.

Not personally assaulting you on this, you were just the one to make the comment the billionth time to make me give my opinion.

P.S. fk mining anyway .. crap wait, I need my ship to make things go pew pew pop