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EoKI - Where have all the Republicans gone?

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Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#41 - 2012-06-28 08:40:22 UTC
Ms. Halete, your viewpoints reveal a more mature demeanor than I would've suspected. For the sake of calming this topic and keeping things... civil, would you be kind enough to meet me in private? Just for a brief chat, of course.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc

Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#42 - 2012-06-28 09:01:33 UTC
Halete wrote:
I'm upset that you have neglected to comment on the situation at all


Presumably, you wanted opinion from Republicans. I do not qualify as one.

Quote:
On the Caldari - we never had that date, love. Do get in touch, okay?


Enchanting, certainly. And bedazzling, bewitching, beguiling, conceited -all those things. Stupid? No. Neither are you. Let's not have that 'date'.

"Modern Life is Rubbish"

Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-06-28 09:13:20 UTC
Ssakaa wrote:
Halete wrote:
I'm upset that you have neglected to comment on the situation at all


Presumably, you wanted opinion from Republicans. I do not qualify as one.

Quote:
On the Caldari - we never had that date, love. Do get in touch, okay?


Enchanting, certainly. And bedazzling, bewitching, beguiling, conceited -all those things. Stupid? No. Neither are you. Let's not have that 'date'.


Fair enough, you're right that I would prefer to hear the opinions of Republicans, but all are welcome.

I'm really quite upset that you won't join me for dinner, though. I'm sure that you'd pose far more danger to me than I would to you.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2012-06-28 12:11:04 UTC
Shakor and his Jovian puppet-masters don't care about the Minmatar people. The self-styled Elders don't care about the Minmatar people.

The Minmatar people deserve to be governed by people who will nurture them. By people who will elevate them culturally. By people who will enlighten them.

They will never get those things from the Shakorites, but they will get them from the Empire.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#45 - 2012-06-28 15:38:43 UTC
I have left the militia, due to the fact that I do seek peace, and as I have said repeatedly, I dont see how I can say this, and be taken seriously, from behind a loaded gun.

I will be helping those who have helped our people to continue doing so. There are more than enough people left "in the fight". Id rather focus my efforts on more immediate, humanitarian concerns.

The Beginning? A war which seems to have no end, no easy out; no winners, only losers.

The Middle? Trying to play damage control as I, and others, are, and do what I can do to ease the hardships suffered by those less fortunate than us.

The End? Who knows where this path leads... the Spirits and Elders are both, sadly, silent.

Avlynka Surionen

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Serech Ulfang
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-06-28 17:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Serech Ulfang
Rodj Blake wrote:
Shakor and his Jovian puppet-masters don't care about the Minmatar people. The self-styled Elders don't care about the Minmatar people.

The Minmatar people deserve to be governed by people who will nurture them. By people who will elevate them culturally. By people who will enlighten them.

They will never get those things from the Shakorites, but they will get them from the Empire.



Your response Mr Blake has left me speechless by your ignorance..not that you care(which is the least of my concerns) but my God...........My God how much have we strayed as a society?
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2012-06-28 19:13:58 UTC
Serech Ulfang wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Shakor and his Jovian puppet-masters don't care about the Minmatar people. The self-styled Elders don't care about the Minmatar people.

The Minmatar people deserve to be governed by people who will nurture them. By people who will elevate them culturally. By people who will enlighten them.

They will never get those things from the Shakorites, but they will get them from the Empire.



Your response Mr Blake has left me speechless by your ignorance..not that you care(which is the least of my concerns) but my God...........My God how much have we strayed as a society?


Ignorant in what way?

I would like to know, as perhaps you have learned something during the eighteen days since your graduation as a capsuleer that I have missed.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Kazuma Ry
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2012-06-28 19:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazuma Ry
Rodj Blake wrote:
Shakor and his Jovian puppet-masters don't care about the Minmatar people. The self-styled Elders don't care about the Minmatar people.

The Minmatar people deserve to be governed by people who will nurture them. By people who will elevate them culturally. By people who will enlighten them.

They will never get those things from the Shakorites, but they will get them from the Empire.


Truer words could not have been spoken, Admiral Blake.
Oserik Illard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2012-06-30 08:31:16 UTC
I have mixed feelings about this discussion. The "old" Republic was flawed, perhaps doomed from the start. Our ties to family, clan, and tribe run too deep. Peace with Amarr was, and is, an odious proposition. The killing of Muritor was tragic, maybe criminal. There was corruption during Midular's regime, but there's corruption in any government.

So, they were not the best of times, but what have we got now?

A mess. The Elders came riding in from nullsec and started a war without giving the Republic any advance notice or time to prepare. Since then, we haven't heard a peep from them. Saviors of our people indeed.

Meanwhile we've dissolved Parliament in favor of de facto rule by a single man. Tribal leaders pander to the masses, who are consumed by jingoism and reverence for our new leader; I'd even go so far as to call it hero-worship.

This idea that "the old ways" (whatever they are) are somehow more virtuous or pure than the way we live now is ridiculous. Perhaps as a result of this GalNet post my skin will be flayed off to remove my tattoos. Good thing I didn't get one of those Voluval marks, tradition dictates that I'd be exiled, killed, or subjected to some other form of superstitious barbarity. Karin Midular, whom many consider to be a race traitor, bears the Ray of Matar. What do the old ways say about that?

Our ways have sustained us through hard times, and we've kept them even as the world around us has changed. Many tribal rituals are beautiful and moving. Others aren't. Some of our traditions are the glue that holds our society together, but we shouldn't choose dogma over prosperity. We didn't have a Sanmatar when we rebelled against the Amarr, and the Republic survived for over a century without one. Why do we need one now?

In the absence of Parliament, what is the Sanmatar doing to maintain our foreign and trade relations? When will he convene the Tribal Assembly?

I could go on, and on, and on, but I'd just be repeating things that've already been said here.

Is the Republic doomed? Probably not, but let's not pretend that we've turned over a new leaf by becoming a timocracy.





Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#50 - 2012-06-30 11:22:27 UTC
Oserik Illard wrote:
I have mixed feelings about this discussion. The "old" Republic was flawed, perhaps doomed from the start. Our ties to family, clan, and tribe run too deep. Peace with Amarr was, and is, an odious proposition. The killing of Muritor was tragic, maybe criminal. There was corruption during Midular's regime, but there's corruption in any government.

So, they were not the best of times, but what have we got now?


Corruption and the status quo of repugnant ambivalence.

Quote:
This idea that "the old ways" (whatever they are) are somehow more virtuous or pure than the way we live now is ridiculous. Perhaps as a result of this GalNet post my skin will be flayed off to remove my tattoos. Good thing I didn't get one of those Voluval marks, tradition dictates that I'd be exiled, killed, or subjected to some other form of superstitious barbarity.


For sure some will try to flay you, here. However, some clans of the six kin relegated spirituality (with all that entails) to an abstract, obsolete, companion of daily life a decade or so ago. They are of course a minority still. Indeed, some of the younger Matar generation regionally based inside parts of The Republic are already refusing their voluval. I won't tell you where but I feel no antipathy against these youngsters -perhaps it's a fad, who knows. Perhaps it is not. In any event, they're the new breed - our future if you like, so if not a fad, then it'd be rather a shock for some who look to the past for guidance. Maybe it'll catch on, maybe it will not. It'll certainly bear keeping a close eye upon.

Quote:
Is the Republic doomed? Probably not, but let's not pretend that we've turned over a new leaf by becoming a timocracy


Could you expand on your timocracy a little? I am not sure I understand your context, here.


"Modern Life is Rubbish"

Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-07-04 12:16:16 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

First, you can engage with the substance of the arguments being made. Well-handled, you can dispel a number of illusions, maybe make some strong points of your own, and easily come out with both you and your faction smelling like roses-- IF the subject matter is actually foolery. If it's not, you can end up in trouble. Everyone is either consciously or intuitively aware of this last, so if you do not engage, there will always be the suspicion that you are trying to avoid contact with an enemy you can't face.


I hope that Aria wont mind me quoting her to my own ends. Bold for emphasis.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Oserik Illard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-07-13 06:05:22 UTC
Ssakaa wrote:
Could you expand on your timocracy a little? I am not sure I understand your context, here.


Sorry to dredge this up, but I don't want to leave you hanging. I've been occupied lately, and received an earful from the family after my last little outburst in this thread. Whoever showed my great-aunts how to use the fluid-comm network has a lot to answer for.

At the risk of touching off a philosophical or political debate, I'll try my best to answer your question. We've waded into the deep-end of my intellectual pool, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

A timocracy, according to certain definitions, is a form of government where love of honor is the guiding principle. For comparison, we might say that love of wealth is the guiding principle in a plutocracy, or love of ability the guiding principle in a meritocracy.

Timocracies are born out of resentment for the ruling class. People start to believe that their rulers care more about cultivating certain virtues than bringing order to society and projecting state power. In our case, we might say that Midular cared too much about promoting peace and "normalizing" the Republic's foreign relations than she did about helping the Republic's poor or fighting to free our enslaved brethren. How does one throw off the corruption of the former regime? By solving civil disputes and displaying the state's power-- rein in autonomous interests and make war.

This perception that the former regime was corrupt can also make timocrats contemptuous of money and money-making activities. Peace and friendly relations with external powers was a boon for the Republic's economy. It's true that many of our poor saw little of this wealth, but conditions were improving. I'd rather not get into a "show us the proof" argument over this; in my opinion the economy was doing better before the war started, and the Republic's poor continue to live in desperate conditions, so I'm not sure further discussion of this issue will go anywhere.

My concerns with timocracy are twofold: first, there's economic angle. I believe that economic development is the only way to ensure that our people remain free, and is the surest path towards freeing our enslaved brethren. Eschewing this in favor of "coming for our people" is, at best, short-sighted. I'm not saying that capsuleers shouldn't be free to make war on the Amarr, but government involvement is unnecessary. Look at the recent idiocy with loyalty point rewards.

At the risk of sounding paranoid, I am also concerned that tribal autonomy will be arrogated to the Sanmatar and his new government. There's no tribal council, Parliament has been dissolved, and one man currently holds most of the cards. With the war going on, which tribal leader is stupid enough to order their factories to start making butter again, instead of guns? How long until the announcement that convening the tribal council has been put on hold until the conclusion of this war? Seeing as we've yet to identify any goals or victory conditions, when do you think this war will end? I'm not sure it ever will.

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