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Eve's rate of data transfer/bandwidth requirements

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Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#21 - 2012-06-30 06:26:40 UTC
leviticus ander wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:
Where do you live that you have limited download caps?

welcome to canada, or many european countries where torrenting laws are pretty lax.
canada is getting better (there's a service in BC for 250Mb/s down 25Mb/s up with a 1TB cap) but we're still kind of in the dark ages for the average internet service.

If you're in the dark ages in Canada than Australia is precambrian

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Pipa Porto
#22 - 2012-06-30 06:32:42 UTC
Jett0 wrote:
DTson Gauur wrote:
1 Hz update rate means that the server refreshes the info on everything a player does once a second. So if you have say, a 250ms ping (or 4 Hz) , eve on server side doesn't really care, you still get data faster up/down than the server does updates.


Thanks for the explanation. So... how did it work before the update?


It's always worked that way.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-06-30 06:51:33 UTC
The consumption will be fairly higher is you:

- Play in Jita or somewhere with many characters. Both because of much stuff going on and because you'll load loads of portraits (unless you hack the feature to not contact the CCP portraits server).

- Constant "mini-patches", at 30-50MB every 3-4 days it can eat up the bandwidth cap fairly easy.

- Ancient EvE features consume less bandwidth than newer ones. The elder devs were more attentive with that.

- Forums: it's stupidly bad made, slow and uses wads of pointless bandwidth.
Constable Chang
#24 - 2012-06-30 07:20:57 UTC
DTson Gauur wrote:
Jett0 wrote:
For reference, my current connection will not stream YouTube, but I can play EVE just fine. However, I've noticed in the past that a fast but inconsistent connection makes it unplayable. v v v

Constable Change wrote:
Its not very tolerant of packet loss though. I keep a ping going in another window. Just two ping timeouts is enough for the Eve client to 'disconnect'. Even if after these two timeouts the connection becomes stable again, Eve just dies and I have to close the Eve window and restart the game.


The launcher won't even start until your connection becomes stable. I wish they'd change that...

CCP Explorer wrote:
Approx. 6 KB/s. EVe is fairly tolerant of latency given the 1 Hz update.


Would you mind explaining what you mean by 1 Hz update?


1 Hz update rate means that the server refreshes the info on everything a player does once a second. So if you have say, a 250ms ping (or 4 Hz) , eve on server side doesn't really care, you still get data faster up/down than the server does updates.

And as others have already said, Eve has absolutely horrible handling of packet loss (read: it has none), even a single lost packet can cause the client to disconnect.


Eve uses TCP doesn't it? Not UDP? If so, whats the excuse? One of the main purposes of TCP is that it can cope with packet loss.
Mei ra'Zhault
Kimotoro Trading Company
#25 - 2012-06-30 07:27:16 UTC
leviticus ander wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:
Where do you live that you have limited download caps?

welcome to canada


um, what?
DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators
#26 - 2012-06-30 07:44:18 UTC
Constable Chang wrote:
Eve uses TCP doesn't it? Not UDP? If so, whats the excuse? One of the main purposes of TCP is that it can cope with packet loss.


Can't say for sure, but my bet is that since the server is actually asynchronous it doesn't know how to resend data. Ie. the time it takes to process a packet, send it and for the client to respond "Hey! Where's my data?!" The server has already run another refresh and goes "Oh, that dude didn't send any data last time, must've disconnected..." and promptly closes the connection.

PS: the asynch part is btw why sometimes even the fastest locking ships (scan resolution of 1400+) can't lock a pod/shuttle/frig/cloaker in time on gate/whatever. It's simply because the other player got his data packet FIRST. This wouldn't be a problem if the server would run on say 100 Hz (or ticks as those FPS dudes like to call it), but when the rate is 1 Hz it matters. A LOT.
Cierejai
Biofuel Productions
#27 - 2012-06-30 09:08:38 UTC
You should move to Canada if you want a good ISP, specifically western Canada.
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-06-30 09:57:12 UTC
Cierejai wrote:
You should move to Canada if you want a good ISP, specifically western Canada.


^

If I have a cap here, I'm unaware of it as I've never managed to come anywhere near it.
Anndy
The Evocati
#29 - 2012-06-30 10:50:34 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Cierejai wrote:
You should move to Canada if you want a good ISP, specifically western Canada.


^

If I have a cap here, I'm unaware of it as I've never managed to come anywhere near it.


depends where you live, western canada is pretty good and they have quite a few crown corps left that have great service, sadly as you go to ontario and further east it quickly turns to crap with bell/rogers having a monopoly
Gustavus Adolphus
Croatoan Enterprises
#30 - 2012-06-30 11:16:53 UTC
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
leviticus ander wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:
Where do you live that you have limited download caps?

welcome to canada, or many european countries where torrenting laws are pretty lax.
canada is getting better (there's a service in BC for 250Mb/s down 25Mb/s up with a 1TB cap) but we're still kind of in the dark ages for the average internet service.

If you're in the dark ages in Canada than Australia is precambrian


LOL, you should play Eve in the Middle East.
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#31 - 2012-06-30 12:51:32 UTC
Croniac wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
As for any overlap, I highly doubt it as each client would be transmitting and receiving its own unique set of data.
Each instance of the game is unique, the data isn't shared, one of your toons could be in Jita and the other 46 jumps away, each client doesn't know or care the location of the other. So each client requires its own discrete datastream.

Just like each client uses its own discrete resources on your local machine.
That last part is something that is true currently but something we are hoping to look into soon™. Even if you have two characters far apart then, e.g., they could both be flying the same ship and then the two clients could share memory for textures.

But the network traffic necessarily needs to be separate. Two characters can never be in the *exact* same location and circumstances and the overhead of trying to determine what is common and going to clients on the same machine is more than simply keeping separate data streams. That being said, when determining what goes into each data stream we try to figure out if the same data is applicable to a larger group and push that data in a single stream from the location nodes to the proxies and have the proxies deal with pumping it to the individual clients. This applies to, e.g., physics updates for everyone on the same grid.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#32 - 2012-06-30 13:00:39 UTC
Constable Chang wrote:
DTson Gauur wrote:
Jett0 wrote:
For reference, my current connection will not stream YouTube, but I can play EVE just fine. However, I've noticed in the past that a fast but inconsistent connection makes it unplayable. v v v

Constable Change wrote:
Its not very tolerant of packet loss though. I keep a ping going in another window. Just two ping timeouts is enough for the Eve client to 'disconnect'. Even if after these two timeouts the connection becomes stable again, Eve just dies and I have to close the Eve window and restart the game.
The launcher won't even start until your connection becomes stable. I wish they'd change that...
CCP Explorer wrote:
Approx. 6 KB/s. EVe is fairly tolerant of latency given the 1 Hz update.
Would you mind explaining what you mean by 1 Hz update?
1 Hz update rate means that the server refreshes the info on everything a player does once a second. So if you have say, a 250ms ping (or 4 Hz) , eve on server side doesn't really care, you still get data faster up/down than the server does updates.

And as others have already said, Eve has absolutely horrible handling of packet loss (read: it has none), even a single lost packet can cause the client to disconnect.
Eve uses TCP doesn't it? Not UDP? If so, whats the excuse? One of the main purposes of TCP is that it can cope with packet loss.
Indeed, we don't use UDP since then we would have had to implement packet loss detection and retransmit logic, which is exactly TCP that a lot of very smart people throughout the world have contributed to for decades. Instead of re-inventing the wheel then we simply use TCP. If TCP can't cope with your network connection and drops packets, there is realistically nothing we can do about it.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#33 - 2012-06-30 13:04:20 UTC
DTson Gauur wrote:
Constable Chang wrote:
Eve uses TCP doesn't it? Not UDP? If so, whats the excuse? One of the main purposes of TCP is that it can cope with packet loss.
Can't say for sure, but my bet is that since the server is actually asynchronous it doesn't know how to resend data. Ie. the time it takes to process a packet, send it and for the client to respond "Hey! Where's my data?!" The server has already run another refresh and goes "Oh, that dude didn't send any data last time, must've disconnected..." and promptly closes the connection.

PS: the asynch part is btw why sometimes even the fastest locking ships (scan resolution of 1400+) can't lock a pod/shuttle/frig/cloaker in time on gate/whatever. It's simply because the other player got his data packet FIRST. This wouldn't be a problem if the server would run on say 100 Hz (or ticks as those FPS dudes like to call it), but when the rate is 1 Hz it matters. A LOT.
Even FPS games only run at 24-32 Hz. And EVE can't both run at those rates and scale like it does. One of the reason you can have fleetfights with thousands of pilots and many thousands of drones is that EVE ticks at 1 Hz. It's one of the primary reasons that allows us to scale this way in a single-sharded universe.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators
#34 - 2012-06-30 13:33:49 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Even FPS games only run at 24-32 Hz. And EVE can't both run at those rates and scale like it does. One of the reason you can have fleetfights with thousands of pilots and many thousands of drones is that EVE ticks at 1 Hz. It's one of the primary reasons that allows us to scale this way in a single-sharded universe.


Yup, the scale is different as are the problems too. But! You're wrong at that the FPS games run at 23-24 Hz (or ticks), it's true that most of them do, but there have been for years for example Counter-Strike and Call of Duty servers that run with 100 Hz (tick) update rate.

The difference between 2 identical instances, one @25 Hz and one @100 Hz is quite noticeable, try it if you can :) Incidentally, the 100 Hz update rate in CoD2 for example allowed for few pretty interesting flaws to be exploited until IW fixed it.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#35 - 2012-06-30 13:35:30 UTC
Coolsmoke wrote:
I'd like to know what sort of total upload/download data figures a player incurs while playing Eve (average 6hrs/day) over a month.

I'm asking because I currently have an unlimited data broadband contract and I'm looking to cut r/l costs by reducing it to something that adequately covers Eve's demands only.

Assume I'm constantly in space, missioning/small gang pvp, and dual-boxing.

Can anyone give me a rough-ballpark-guesstimate? (Googling this gets threads from '07..)

Cheers

Remember you also got to download updates.

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#36 - 2012-06-30 13:37:40 UTC
Shameless Avenger wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Approx. 6 KB/s. EVe is fairly tolerant of latency given the 1 Hz update.


Don't tell that to pilots in delve :P

Nothing going on in Delve can be described by the word "fair".

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Constable Chang
#37 - 2012-07-01 02:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Constable Chang
CCP Explorer wrote:

Indeed, we don't use UDP since then we would have had to implement packet loss detection and retransmit logic, which is exactly TCP that a lot of very smart people throughout the world have contributed to for decades. Instead of re-inventing the wheel then we simply use TCP. If TCP can't cope with your network connection and drops packets, there is realistically nothing we can do about it.


I am fairly certain that the disconnection problem people see when there is very small packet loss is not due to the TCP protocol being unable to cope. I also play other online games and I've seen the same small packet loss while playing them. They don't disconnect the client. Why does Eve? Is this part of the plan to make sure that people keep losing ships?

Btw I have only lost a ship to this problem once, as I recall. It was nothing to cry about. Its just troubling that a game like Eve should be unable to cope with this tiny packet loss when a game like, dare I name it? Ok I will: World of Warcraft copes ADMIRABLY with the same tiny packet loss. Same for Age of Conan, same for DDO. Surely Eve can do better than WoW? (disclaimer: I no longer play WoW nor any of the others, I far prefer Hello Kitty Island Adventure now. Oops I mean Eve).
Coolsmoke
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-07-01 10:02:34 UTC
Good grief.. as OP I've just come back to this thread hoping for a couple of answers, and there are two pages Shocked

My issue is that I'm with British Telecom (for my sins) on an Unlimited Download package that costs £30-odd a month. I also subscribe to Sky HD+. So my networking/entertainment charges are about £60/month and frankly I can't afford it any more.

I'm trying to find a package that I can switch to in August which will keep the wife happy with Hollyoaks etc. as well as coping with my addiction to Eve..

Looks like something around the 5Gb cap should do the trick. Now to negotiate the quagmire of offers online *sigh*

Thanks you very much for the responses.
Constable Chang
#39 - 2012-07-01 10:05:22 UTC
Coolsmoke wrote:
Good grief.. as OP I've just come back to this thread hoping for a couple of answers, and there are two pages Shocked

My issue is that I'm with British Telecom (for my sins) on an Unlimited Download package that costs £30-odd a month. I also subscribe to Sky HD+. So my networking/entertainment charges are about £60/month and frankly I can't afford it any more.

I'm trying to find a package that I can switch to in August which will keep the wife happy with Hollyoaks etc. as well as coping with my addiction to Eve..

Looks like something around the 5Gb cap should do the trick. Now to negotiate the quagmire of offers online *sigh*

Thanks you very much for the responses.



My friend in Poland just told me he recently upgraded to 60Gbps with NO CAP. Now thats civilisation for ya.
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