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Sleeper Jamming

Author
Watooshi Makoochji
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-06-25 22:09:36 UTC
We use Scorpions as part of our C6 plex fleets. They obviously need logi support but they do seem to help to more efficiently complete the sites with fewer lost ships. Mostly because sleepers seem to _hate_ jammer ships and it draws a great deal of their fire.

However, the 'approved' fit in our group uses a pretty standard PVP setup in the midslots:

2 Umbra (Amarr specific)
2 BZ-5 (Caldari specific)
2 Hypnos Ion (Gallente specific)
2 Enfeebling (Minmatar specific)

As I say, the _main_ benefit of the scorpions seems to be to conentrate sleeper fire on one reasonably durable ship that makes life easier for the logis to keep everyone alive. But I'm wondering if the effects of the Scorpions on actually jamming the sleepers is optimal with a setup like that above?

Would a mid rack of 8 Hypnos multi-spectrals possibly be more effective?

Not really interested in "opinions;" our group already has plenty of those. But if anyone (particularly a Dev??) knows for certain the maths behind it, and specifically the nature of sleeper tageting mechanics (links to documentation would be most appreciated) it would be most appreciated.
Bruce Bayne
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-06-25 22:53:01 UTC
With racial jammers you just go fine. All Sleepers have the same sensonr strenght in all classes, so the racials have the better effect.

And yes, sleepers dont really like jamming.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#3 - 2012-06-25 23:02:11 UTC
Yup they have equal strength to each jammer type, battleships 30 points, cruisers 20 points, frigs 10 points so racial jammers of any type are more effective than multispecs.
Watooshi Makoochji
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-06-25 23:19:50 UTC
Thanks guys!
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#5 - 2012-06-26 08:42:21 UTC
I don't think I've ever seen someone fit 8 jammers on a scorpion. Though, I suppose for pve it might be doable.

That being said, Scorpions get insane range bonuses for ECM optimal and falloff. Fit them with a range-scripted sebo II, signal amp II, a couple hypnos SDAs, and 1 ea particle dispersion projector and augmentor and you can jam reliably out to 226km.

How far can sleepers shoot and still hit?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-06-26 11:00:27 UTC
scorpions are a waste of space in high end WH sites IMO.
yeah theyll draw agro but youre much better off with another DPS ship in all cases ive seen.

as for the effectiveness of jammers, as stated above use racials.

There is no Bob.

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Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-06-26 11:33:17 UTC
im with jack on this one. though you can effectively jam some sleepers, the most useful part is that they start hating you. An 400k ehp ecm damnation is great for those sites. it refuses to die on pure principle and draws all aggression.
Ashimat
Clandestine Services
#8 - 2012-06-26 14:17:13 UTC
Hathrul wrote:
im with jack on this one. though you can effectively jam some sleepers, the most useful part is that they start hating you. An 400k ehp ecm damnation is great for those sites. it refuses to die on pure principle and draws all aggression.

Thats probably also because you run links on that Damnation. I think gang-links are a agro-magnet in itself, so much in fact, I used to fit a link on my Chimera.

Got blog: http://thecloakedones.blogspot.com

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#9 - 2012-06-26 16:06:10 UTC
I've never seen ganglinks attract sleeper aggro but an interesting one to keep in mind if they do - will have to test it sometime.

Sleepers can still inflict pain out to about 330km or so tho they tend to stop running once they get to about 100km out.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-06-27 19:04:36 UTC
We've been using a Rook to great effect in C4 anomalies. EVERY time a jammer fails to jam after having jammed a target, I get aggro from that target. It's an excellent form of aggro management.

Above is true from what I can tell of sleepers (i'm 10+ jam strength using racials), frigates 10, cruisers 20, Battleships 30.

We used to run an over-tanked (2x basi) heavy dps setup, now we've whittled it down to a Basi, a Raven, and a Rook and complete each site in about 15 minutes. Jamming is so awesome for anti-sleeper repping it makes me want to cry that I didn't think of it months ago.

Not sure how the benefit scales with C5s/C6s given the tank requirements. Crazy OP though in C4 and under.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.

Ketplunk
Glory-Hole
#11 - 2012-06-27 20:35:49 UTC
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
We've been using a Rook to great effect in C4 anomalies. EVERY time a jammer fails to jam after having jammed a target, I get aggro from that target. It's an excellent form of aggro management.

Above is true from what I can tell of sleepers (i'm 10+ jam strength using racials), frigates 10, cruisers 20, Battleships 30.

We used to run an over-tanked (2x basi) heavy dps setup, now we've whittled it down to a Basi, a Raven, and a Rook and complete each site in about 15 minutes. Jamming is so awesome for anti-sleeper repping it makes me want to cry that I didn't think of it months ago.

Not sure how the benefit scales with C5s/C6s given the tank requirements. Crazy OP though in C4 and under.


Where does your Basilisk get its reps and cap?
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-06-28 20:58:45 UTC
Ketplunk wrote:
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
We've been using a Rook to great effect in C4 anomalies. EVERY time a jammer fails to jam after having jammed a target, I get aggro from that target. It's an excellent form of aggro management.

Above is true from what I can tell of sleepers (i'm 10+ jam strength using racials), frigates 10, cruisers 20, Battleships 30.

We used to run an over-tanked (2x basi) heavy dps setup, now we've whittled it down to a Basi, a Raven, and a Rook and complete each site in about 15 minutes. Jamming is so awesome for anti-sleeper repping it makes me want to cry that I didn't think of it months ago.

Not sure how the benefit scales with C5s/C6s given the tank requirements. Crazy OP though in C4 and under.


Where does your Basilisk get its reps and cap?


Raven runs 1 each large energy and large shield transfers. Basi runs 4-2 configuration giving the raven enough cap to run at 100% permanently. Priority jamming on anything that targets the Basi and then i have rook aggro pretty much the rest of the time. Only get about 550 or 600 tank on the Basi iirc so we have to be fairly proactive about cleaning targets going after the basi. With an additional raven or other spare 2high slot battleship we could round out the Basi tank a lot better, but this setup works in all C4 anomalies so far. I think radars/mags will be dicey or too difficult, but we haven't had a chance to test it yet.

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-06-28 22:21:20 UTC
That setup sound painfully slow...
How long it take to run 1 site with raven, basi, rook?

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#14 - 2012-06-28 23:22:50 UTC
Rroff wrote:
I've never seen ganglinks attract sleeper aggro but an interesting one to keep in mind if they do - will have to test it sometime.

Sleepers can still inflict pain out to about 330km or so tho they tend to stop running once they get to about 100km out.


Sorry to digress but I heard that max lockrange is 249 km. Isn't it true for NPCs ?

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Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-06-29 03:17:37 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
That setup sound painfully slow...
How long it take to run 1 site with raven, basi, rook?



About 15 minutes. As fast as 10 in some sites.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.

Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-06-30 17:02:34 UTC
Rroff wrote:
I've never seen ganglinks attract sleeper aggro but an interesting one to keep in mind if they do - will have to test it sometime.

Sleepers can still inflict pain out to about 330km or so tho they tend to stop running once they get to about 100km out.



I used to run a claymore all the time and never noticed extra aggro. Then again i never saw above average for the scimi either.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#17 - 2012-07-01 03:05:31 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Rroff wrote:
I've never seen ganglinks attract sleeper aggro but an interesting one to keep in mind if they do - will have to test it sometime.

Sleepers can still inflict pain out to about 330km or so tho they tend to stop running once they get to about 100km out.


Sorry to digress but I heard that max lockrange is 249 km. Isn't it true for NPCs ?


Not actually sure - the have an "attack range" of 330km defined but not sure if thats just the max "activation" range or if thats the max they can lock.
Watooshi Makoochji
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-07-04 11:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Watooshi Makoochji
Soldarius wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen someone fit 8 jammers on a scorpion. Though, I suppose for pve it might be doable.

That being said, Scorpions get insane range bonuses for ECM optimal and falloff. Fit them with a range-scripted sebo II, signal amp II, a couple hypnos SDAs, and 1 ea particle dispersion projector and augmentor and you can jam reliably out to 226km.

How far can sleepers shoot and still hit?


Pretty sure the max lock is 250km and the max hit range is ~150km for the C6 sleepers.

The thing is that jamming them doesn't _really_ seem to work. Yeah, maybe if you put several jammers on a single sleeper you'll jam him out. But when there are 5 or 8 sleeper BS, 10+ cruisers and 20+ frigs on grid, that doesn't really make much difference.

What seems to make the difference is simply that the Scorp draws fire, making it much easier for the Logi (carrier usually).

Hathrul wrote:
im with jack on this one. though you can effectively jam some sleepers, the most useful part is that they start hating you. An 400k ehp ecm damnation is great for those sites. it refuses to die on pure principle and draws all aggression.


Hmmmm, wonder if it works though?

ECM Tengus evidently do NOT draw aggro.

I'm betting that the it is not simply ECM that is provoking the sleeper hate but rather: (1) ECM; (2) large sig radius; (3) slow; (4) relatively squishy = weak link

Sleepers, and C6 sleepers in particular are tricky bastards. They really do try to 'figure out' your weak link and break it with the goal to pop your whole fleet.
Poloturion
Genco Pura Olive Oil Company.
#19 - 2012-07-04 16:33:09 UTC
I'm kind of shocked people actually use ECM to run sites. If people are dying without it you either have too little logi or they suck (maybe both). You would be more efficient if you just brought something dedicated to DPS or a type of EWAR that increases the potential of your other ships like TPs or Webs.

Also, please fix POS.

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#20 - 2012-07-04 16:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Watooshi Makoochji wrote:


Pretty sure the max lock is 250km and the max hit range is ~150km for the C6 sleepers.

The thing is that jamming them doesn't _really_ seem to work. Yeah, maybe if you put several jammers on a single sleeper you'll jam him out. But when there are 5 or 8 sleeper BS, 10+ cruisers and 20+ frigs on grid, that doesn't really make much difference.

What seems to make the difference is simply that the Scorp draws fire, making it much easier for the Logi (carrier usually).

ECM Tengus evidently do NOT draw aggro.

I'm betting that the it is not simply ECM that is provoking the sleeper hate but rather: (1) ECM; (2) large sig radius; (3) slow; (4) relatively squishy = weak link

Sleepers, and C6 sleepers in particular are tricky bastards. They really do try to 'figure out' your weak link and break it with the goal to pop your whole fleet.


Missiles have 168,750m range on average from the sleeper BS and lasers anywhere from 60 to 220km optimal and around 50-110km falloff - I'm not certain but it looks like they have 250km lock range and 330km activation range from their "rest" position.

I don't know the exact formula but sig radius and ewar are major multipliers in their target selection - range also seems to have an impact but not as big as sig size.

From what I've seen sleepers seem to just randomly cycle different patterns but some record is kept of how effective each pattern was against you and after awhile they will start applying the patterns that you show the most weakness against - which is why often they don't seem "that" bad, especially if your getting through them quickly and other times they will come out of nowhere and hit your setup really hard - the longer your taking doing a site the more likely they will randomly find something that works against you.
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