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Modify the hybrid ammo
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Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#41 - 2012-06-28 21:40:59 UTC
Phill Esteen wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
Also change it where Caldari Navy hybrid ammo has better optimal and bit less damage and Gallente Navy has less optimal and more damage than they normally do right now.


No, give Caldari ammo a range bonus and Gallente ammo a rep bonus.



wat
Charles Baker
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-06-28 21:45:16 UTC
I'd support the close range Hybrid ammo's getting a small explosive component.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#43 - 2012-06-28 22:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Funky Lazers
Pipa Porto wrote:

Base T1 Resists are:
Shield: EM 0%, Therm 20%, Kin 40%, Exp 50%
Armor: EM 50%, Therm 45%, Kin 25% Exp 10%

Patch one Hole (which is normally all you the specific hardeners you have room for if you're lucky), and you get:
Shield: EM 55%, Therm 20%, Kin 40%, Exp 50%
Armor: EM 50%, Therm 45%, Kin 25% Exp 59.5%

NB: Omni hardeners don't matter because we're comparing relative resist holes.

So, Kin/Therm tends to be the best vs T1 ships. Which is great, cause that's what most people fly. (Also wipes out your argument that Kin/Therm are bad against T1 ships).


Which is why I always patch up those holes.
Also there are A LOT of other reasons to patch up Kin/Therm:
- The most common drones you see are Ogres/Hammerheads/Hobgoblins or Caldari ones
- Every 3rd ship you'll meet in null is a drake
- Everyone knows what Tengu is and what damage it does

Since 2 races have almost only Kin/Therm damage why shouldn't I patch those holes?!

Whatever.
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2012-06-28 22:13:19 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
Never fear, after the last round of ammo simplifications was received so warmly, I predict the following changes will occur shortly.


Remove Damage types completely. Damage will become just Damage.

Remove Shield, Armor, Hull and replace with Hitpoints.



sounds alot like WoW in space. come on if you put some physics and chemistry principles into practice on the hybrd ammo you be surprised what ya get
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-06-28 22:16:03 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

And again, the ships used matter. Hellcats have room for an extra TC over the Maelstrom (but of course, the roles are different). If nobody were using Amarr ships, then Lasers intentional weaknesses (they all have weaknesses) might find themselves being looked at.

well by that logic, gallete should be under s microscope. aside from the occasional small fight/brawl, you pretty much don't see them in an offensive role in PVP, and in PVE they play second to just about everyone in different places.as I keep telling myself, gallente are decent at doing everything, but they're not good at doing anything.
I know, if they get on top of you, they'll shred you, I've seen this. but by most peoples declaration, if you get caught by a gallente ship, you're bad at PVP and deserved to get caught.
Pipa Porto
#46 - 2012-06-28 22:16:11 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

Base T1 Resists are:
Shield: EM 0%, Therm 20%, Kin 40%, Exp 50%
Armor: EM 50%, Therm 45%, Kin 25% Exp 10%

Patch one Hole (which is normally all you the specific hardeners you have room for if you're lucky), and you get:
Shield: EM 55%, Therm 20%, Kin 40%, Exp 50%
Armor: EM 50%, Therm 45%, Kin 25% Exp 59.5%

NB: Omni hardeners don't matter because we're comparing relative resist holes.

So, Kin/Therm tends to be the best vs T1 ships. Which is great, cause that's what most people fly. (Also wipes out your argument that Kin/Therm are bad against T1 ships).


Which is why I always patch up those holes.
Also there are A LOT of other reasons to patch up Kin/Therm:
- The most common drones you see are Ogres/Hammerheads/Hobgoblins or Caldari ones
- Every 3rd ship you'll meet in null is a drake
- Everyone knows what Tengu is and what damage it does

Since 2 races have almost only Kin/Therm damage why shouldn't I patch those holes?!


Because most PvP ships only have space for 3 (maaaybe 4) resist modules/rigs. After patching the big hole, it's usually best to use omni-resist mods.

(And who uses Gallente Drones in PvP? Warrior IIs ftw)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#47 - 2012-06-28 22:19:11 UTC
leviticus ander wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

And again, the ships used matter. Hellcats have room for an extra TC over the Maelstrom (but of course, the roles are different). If nobody were using Amarr ships, then Lasers intentional weaknesses (they all have weaknesses) might find themselves being looked at.

well by that logic, gallete should be under s microscope. aside from the occasional small fight/brawl, you pretty much don't see them in an offensive role in PVP, and in PVE they play second to just about everyone in different places.as I keep telling myself, gallente are decent at doing everything, but they're not good at doing anything.
I know, if they get on top of you, they'll shred you, I've seen this. but by most peoples declaration, if you get caught by a gallente ship, you're bad at PVP and deserved to get caught.


Properly fit, a Gallente ship is pretty good at closing. The problem is that active armor tanking needs a buff for the larger gallente ships to be viable when fit to close effectively. (You shouldn't fit a gallente ship like an Amarr one).

Gallente Frigates are Fantastic and everything else just needs good tacklers.

But Gallente's range and closing ability aren't what we're talking about. You're suggesting that their damage type is the problem.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#48 - 2012-06-28 22:19:11 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

(And who uses Gallente Drones in PvP? Warrior IIs ftw)


Huge fan of the Warrior II mantra, but I've heard an argument ingame upon my return that they were actually bad because they were too fast for their own good, causing them to have poor tracking. Cofirm/Deny?
Pipa Porto
#49 - 2012-06-28 22:23:06 UTC
Ituhata wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

(And who uses Gallente Drones in PvP? Warrior IIs ftw)


Huge fan of the Warrior II mantra, but I've heard an argument ingame upon my return that they were actually bad because they were too fast for their own good, causing them to have poor tracking. Cofirm/Deny?


The thing is that Drones are really only situationally good on non-drone boats. When trying to kill fast tackle, you need the Warrior IIs speed to give some chance of both killing the tackle and keeping the drones alive (though you probably won't win that anyway Cry). When trying to add damage to kill something big, the speed and tracking probably won't be a huge issue.

I haven't really done the testing, but I can't really see where Hobgobins 19 (or more, if tracking's an issue) extra DPS will compensate for the Warrior IIs speed.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-06-28 23:55:24 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

Base T1 Resists are:
Shield: EM 0%, Therm 20%, Kin 40%, Exp 50%
Armor: EM 50%, Therm 45%, Kin 25% Exp 10%

Patch one Hole (which is normally all you the specific hardeners you have room for if you're lucky), and you get:
Shield: EM 55%, Therm 20%, Kin 40%, Exp 50%
Armor: EM 50%, Therm 45%, Kin 25% Exp 59.5%

NB: Omni hardeners don't matter because we're comparing relative resist holes.

So, Kin/Therm tends to be the best vs T1 ships. Which is great, cause that's what most people fly. (Also wipes out your argument that Kin/Therm are bad against T1 ships).


Which is why I always patch up those holes.
Also there are A LOT of other reasons to patch up Kin/Therm:
- The most common drones you see are Ogres/Hammerheads/Hobgoblins or Caldari ones
- Every 3rd ship you'll meet in null is a drake
- Everyone knows what Tengu is and what damage it does

Since 2 races have almost only Kin/Therm damage why shouldn't I patch those holes?!


Because most PvP ships only have space for 3 (maaaybe 4) resist modules/rigs. After patching the big hole, it's usually best to use omni-resist mods.

(And who uses Gallente Drones in PvP? Warrior IIs ftw)


If thats what you got for resist your an idiot pulling numbers out your ass. yeah if you have no armor or shield comp skills but everyone knows you need to train them all to 5s. what self respecting gallente pvp pilot has done.

Gallente PVP pilots limited to the hybrids if they trained them but it all comes down to skill still. the Drones are used to compliment a pilots DPS usually using a diffrent type of damage.

Hell even Mr Obvious knows this
Pipa Porto
#51 - 2012-06-29 00:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

Base T1 Resists


If thats what you got for resist your an idiot pulling numbers out your ass. yeah if you have no armor or shield comp skills but everyone knows you need to train them all to 5s. what self respecting gallente pvp pilot has done.

Gallente PVP pilots limited to the hybrids if they trained them but it all comes down to skill still. the Drones are used to compliment a pilots DPS usually using a diffrent type of damage.

Hell even Mr Obvious knows this


Hi there. Might want to read things before yelling at them. That said...

Armor and Shield Comps only apply to passive modules. Shield ships by-and-large don't use those at all, and Armor ships by-and-large only use the Omni-Damage ones (ENAM or ANP), which isn't relevant to this discussion, because we're talking about relative differences in resists, not absolute resists. I could have done the numbers for patching a resist hole with a Rig, but that takes effort and I almost always patch mine with an active module if at all possible.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#52 - 2012-06-29 00:30:56 UTC
I understand why this would be important to Hybrid weapon enthusiasts but do we really want to have all the races and their weapons systerms be the same? Seems to me that the lack of EM and Explosive on the Gallente and Caldari sides are rectified by Drones and Missiles respectively. Minmatar projectile ammo is flexile enough. The Amarr, well, the do not have the same damage type choices but not having to carry around extra ordinance and not being hassled as much by reloading can be seen as a benefit.

Forgive me. but I just don't care too much for the idea of all races being vanilla.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#53 - 2012-06-29 08:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Lol, again.

Lasers are ******* awesome, and Scorch is godly, that damage projection and high damage makes up for the lack of damage type changes.

Hybrids have awesome range and good damage with Rails, and Blasters do very high Deeps.

Projectiles get to pick damage types, however do less raw DPS than blasters, they project damage better however through falloff.

They also project far less well than lazers and do far less damage at equal ranges because lazers engage in optimal, not in falloff.

Missiles, I wont comment.

This comes around every couple of weeks, and its always wrong.


top level damage chart

Above picture is used with 4x faction damage mods and full weapons, highest damage ammo for each weapon set, all 5 skills and no implants.

Beyond pointing out the obvious did you have anything else to add? Even switching over to you magic scorch the dps is only as high or higher than the arty mach until 50km and only stays above the arty mach in dps (not volley) for the 30-50km range band. So no actually they don't do 'far less damage at equal ranges' unless you're considering the fringe cases of fighting with a projectiles vessel to specifically stay out of optimal anyway.

What exactly is your point? If your weapon is having to fight with BOTH of its damage types, at 80% resists natively in both armour and shield before even considering all the other factors like falloff and optimal and tracking what is so hard about conceiving a subtle change to hybrid ammo damage profiles?



Sorry, I didnt go on the forums for a day, I now can respond.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You realise your entire argument there is primarily based on the bonuses on the ships, rather than the actual weapon system at all, all these ships have MASSIVE built in bonuses to there racial weapons, this is a ******** comparison, please consider another option.

In my personal experience of PVP (As a winmatar pilot) I have found projectiles are strong, but have issues with fighting in falloff reducing your DPS, lasers dont have such issues.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#54 - 2012-06-29 08:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Kimmi Chan wrote:
I understand why this would be important to Hybrid weapon enthusiasts but do we really want to have all the races and their weapons systerms be the same? Seems to me that the lack of EM and Explosive on the Gallente and Caldari sides are rectified by Drones and Missiles respectively. Minmatar projectile ammo is flexile enough. The Amarr, well, the do not have the same damage type choices but not having to carry around extra ordinance and not being hassled as much by reloading can be seen as a benefit.

Forgive me. but I just don't care too much for the idea of all races being vanilla.


As demonstrated, kin/therm damage type is certainly not an issue against T1 ships, it's usually the best damage type. However, there is a slight imbalance with T2 and T3 resists and damage types. Gallente will always shoot against strongest Caldari resists, while Caldari can choose to shoot into Gal resist hole. Even patched, the explosive resist is weaker.

The racial profiles were designed before selectable ammo damage types, now two races are free from dmg type limitations, but retain their racial resists against their natural enemies. Drones do mitigate this a bit, but they have their shortcomings, EM drones for example aren't that awesome. And drones aren't in any way exclusive to Amarr and Gallente.

Proteus vs Tengu is one example where this imbalance has significant effect on the outcome, but on a larger scale, I'm not sure if this is a major issue.

.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#55 - 2012-06-29 12:27:29 UTC
Roime wrote:
[quote=Kimmi Chan]
The racial profiles were designed before selectable ammo damage types, now two races are free from dmg type limitations, but retain their racial resists against their natural enemies. Drones do mitigate this a bit, but they have their shortcomings, EM drones for example aren't that awesome. And drones aren't in any way exclusive to Amarr and Gallente.

After resistance, amarr drones compare very well to the others. Praetor for example are the mightest against a standard 10MN tengu, they are also the fastest after minmatar drones. Add the extended drone bays gallente ships have (and amarr for some of their ships), and the added dps is not negligible.

If, as a gallente pilote, you find problems because of damage type, drones is the solution. And drone travel time is absolutly not a concern when using blasters.

BTW, caldari don't have a real damage selection most of the time, because most of their ships have a bonus to kinetic missiles only (and that's a good thing IMO).

For minmatar, their 10s reload is not that comfortable to change ammo on the fly, so most of the time they will use EMP or barrage depending on the target, but they will have to choose before the fight begin. BTW, they dont have kinetic close range ammo.

Damage selection on minmatar ammo is interesting, but gallente or minmatar don't need it. Though, 5 second reload is still too much to use the ammo the same way the amarr do ; some variation in range and tracking and in the kinetic/thermal distribution would be more interesting.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#56 - 2012-06-29 13:43:41 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

For minmatar, their 10s reload is not that comfortable to change ammo on the fly, so most of the time they will use EMP or barrage depending on the target, but they will have to choose before the fight begin. BTW, they dont have kinetic close range ammo.


You don't really need a Kinetic ammo when you have 3 others.

I also don't think hybrids need a different/new damage type.
Although I really think Rails need more damage or tracking. You still can't compare them to Beams or Lasers at all.

Whatever.
Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
#57 - 2012-06-29 14:04:52 UTC
Hybrids and lasers offset their inability to select damage type with higher overall damage output potential. Different is different, bring the right weapon for the job.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-06-29 14:15:12 UTC
Quaaid wrote:
Hybrids and lasers offset their inability to select damage type with higher overall damage output potential. Different is different, bring the right weapon for the job.


And "the right weapon" is... projectile turrets.

Lazors are only good at shooting rainbow colors at your own drones.
Edey
#59 - 2012-06-29 14:19:15 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Quaaid wrote:
Hybrids and lasers offset their inability to select damage type with higher overall damage output potential. Different is different, bring the right weapon for the job.


And "the right weapon" is... projectile turrets.

Lazors are only good at shooting rainbow colors at your own drones.


Lol yeah. I still use ACs on my Myrm and other ships instead of Hybrids.
VaL Iscariot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-06-29 14:29:08 UTC
hybrid turrets fire a ball of supercharged plasma (thermal) down magnetic rails to near superluminal speeds which then slam into ships (kinetic) doing monster damage. There is no other damage type because it doesn't make since from a realistic stand point. Should lasers do anything more then electromagnetic and thermal? No. So why does this simple concept escape you?

Minmatar ammunition uses various slug pay loads to alter damage. I.E. Minmatar weapons are actually throwing physical rounds down range, where Gallente and Caldari hybrids are firing balls of molten energy. The same could be said of missiles.

Please stop posting crap like this. It is really getting old.

P.S.

Megathron's rule. Tempest's drool.