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Is there crime with no victim?
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Maxious
Dragon Knights of EvE
#1 - 2012-06-28 07:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Maxious
Just looking in to this scandal with Barclays at the moment about manipulation of traid and bank loans. I don't really know what's going on but people going into a deal their happy about and making a profit. Not at the expence of any one. Profit all round. And I'm thinking what's wrong with that. No one GE ripped off get hurt or looses out. In any way. So it got me thinking is their really a crime out there with no victim? You have heard the phrase victemless crime. Well most the time that's not true because people or business always loose out no matter how big or small. Can you have a crime with no victim?

I'm going to add here after reading posts that crimes like speeding, not stopping at stop signs, using your Mobil whilst driving. These all have victims in potiantia. (sorry if spelling is off) but this means that their is the possibility of a victim. Weather or not it happened or not is not the point. If speeding through a 30 zone you could not stop in time before you run over a 12 year old kid playing football. You may have gotten away with not stopping at that stop sign but it's there to make drivers alert that their about to cross onto a more dangerous road to avoid collisions and killing entire family's. You may get pissed off at a $200 fine but it's deaths, fataliatys and loss of family's their trying to avoid. So no. I don't think those MINOR infractions are victimless at all

Also when it comes to drugs. From smoking weed to the hard stuff let me tell you something from someone who has seen the bad side of these. I've never done drugs my self. I don't beleve in them. Although their are a lot of people who do. If you want to mess yourself up fine go head I won't stop you. But I have seen what it did to people. My own step father (RIP) needed weed because he had an injury. One that killed him in the end. But when he was alive the pain he had was so great that no legal medication could help. So he turned to growing weed and smoking it to help numb the pain. But he got so paranoid that he often thought I was sleeping with my mother and got so violent that when he tried to hit my mum I took the hit my self. And he also ended up punching holes in the wall too. Drugs ruin people and although that's self inflicted the real victims are the people around them. They ruin lives
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#2 - 2012-06-28 07:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Shameless Avenger
Of course you can...

Not stopping at the STOP sign when you are the only one on the road. Totally victimless, yet it's a $200 USD Fine around these parts.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-06-28 07:48:49 UTC
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Of course you can...

Not stopping at the STOP sign when you are the only one on the road. Totally victimless, yet it's a $200 USD Fine around these parts.


This really. It's because laws perform multiple functions and one of them is simply to get people to act in a uniform way or provide a common way to decide priority in certain situation. For example it's pretty irrelevant which side of the road is used for driving as long as everyone follows the same rules. Similarly it's irrelevant who has the right to drive first when several cars meet in an intersection, but it's better to have one common ruleset to manage such situations, so everyone is safer and the trafic flows smoothly. There can be several instances where breaking such rules don't have victims, but enforcing them and punishing the perpetrator is necessery and desirable to keep such instances to a minimum in order to protect the integrity of the system.
Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-06-28 10:36:05 UTC
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Of course you can...

Not stopping at the STOP sign when you are the only one on the road. Totally victimless, yet it's a $200 USD Fine around these parts.
There's a huge difference between crimes and infractions.Roll

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]
Sidus Isaacs
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-06-28 12:00:02 UTC
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Of course you can...

Not stopping at the STOP sign when you are the only one on the road. Totally victimless, yet it's a $200 USD Fine around these parts.


Thats stupidity :)

Another sign of how bad our system is designed/have become :P
Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#6 - 2012-06-28 12:04:10 UTC
Smoking weed is illegal in most countries...

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#7 - 2012-06-28 12:54:56 UTC
Sin Pew wrote:
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Of course you can...

Not stopping at the STOP sign when you are the only one on the road. Totally victimless, yet it's a $200 USD Fine around these parts.
There's a huge difference between crimes and infractions.Roll


Really, because the SILD/jail time feels the same.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
stoicfaux
#8 - 2012-06-28 13:13:36 UTC
Maxious wrote:
Just looking in to this scandal with Barclays at the moment about manipulation of traid and bank loans. I don't really know what's going on but people going into a deal their happy about and making a profit. Not at the expence of any one. Profit all round. And I'm thinking what's wrong with that. No one GE ripped off get hurt or looses out. In any way. So it got me thinking is their really a crime out there with no victim? You have heard the phrase victemless crime. Well most the time that's not true because people or business always loose out no matter how big or small. Can you have a crime with no victim?


You don't see the problem?
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/barclays-pay-290m-penalties-133640636.html
Quote:
The banking industry has been engulfed in a fresh scandal after Barclays paid £290 million to settle claims that it used underhand tactics to try to rig financial markets.
The penalties from UK and US regulators, including a record £59.5 million fine from the Financial Services Authority (FSA), followed allegations it manipulated Libor and Euribor interbank lending, which govern the rates at which banks are prepared to lend to each other in the wholesale money markets.
In the depths of the financial crisis, Barclays gave false information about the interest rates it had to pay to borrow money in an effort to paint a false picture of its health to markets.


Does Barclays Libor scandal affect me?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/28/barclays-libor-scandal-question-answer
Quote:
If Libor was pushed downwards, does that mean rates for savers were also artificially depressed?

Most savings rates set by the building societies and banks have little connection with Libor, so small savers are unaffected. But if you are a big institution – such as the treasurer of a local authority or large charity – you tend to deposit your balances into short-term accounts where the interest paid is linked in some way or another to Libor. These deposits would have received a lower rate of interest than they would otherwise have earned. So they are out of pocket – and may now want the banks to repay them.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-06-28 13:41:19 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Sin Pew wrote:
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Of course you can...

Not stopping at the STOP sign when you are the only one on the road. Totally victimless, yet it's a $200 USD Fine around these parts.
There's a huge difference between crimes and infractions.Roll


Really, because the SILD/jail time feels the same.
Thank you for proving the OP's question is completely skewed, since it depends on the country and the definition its legal system makes of either crime and infraction/tort/whatever, as well as the legal process involved to carry out punishments when breaching the law.

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#10 - 2012-06-28 14:22:17 UTC
Sin Pew wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Sin Pew wrote:
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Of course you can...

Not stopping at the STOP sign when you are the only one on the road. Totally victimless, yet it's a $200 USD Fine around these parts.
There's a huge difference between crimes and infractions.Roll


Really, because the SILD/jail time feels the same.
Thank you for proving the OP's question is completely skewed, since it depends on the country and the definition its legal system makes of either crime and infraction/tort/whatever, as well as the legal process involved to carry out punishments when breaching the law.



I believe Stoic did a better job of clearing up the OP's question, especially in that this crime does in fact have victims as most of these generally do. You just seem to be hooked on differences between crimes and infractions (which are in fact a crime).

Of course I'll describe this from my side of the pond because as you said, different country, different laws.

Crime is a breach of law and it has several levels.

Infractions are on the lowest level and are known as petty misdemeanor. They are generally just tickets given out telling you to go pay up at the court house. Speeding, running red lights or stop signs, not yielding, no use of turn signal, jaywalking, littering, so forth. Mostly petty stuff.

Several infractions can lead to a misdemeanor. In my case it was several no insurance tickets along with having a suspended license because I racked up many infractions. This also includes petty crime like stolen property under X amount, drug paraphernalia, serving to a minor, avoiding taxes, and so on. Penalties range widely from payment to probation to jail time. For my part I was offered 10 days of jail or 2 days of SILD. Pretty obvious which one I chose.

Then we move on to Gross Misdemeanors which would include such wonderful acts like assault, burglary, robbery, minor fraud, distributing, and so on. Now we're talking big fines and over a year in jail along with probation.

Then you have felony, which is pretty much what these guys will be looking at. I'm pretty sure this part is obviously self explanatory.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-06-28 14:27:19 UTC
In before Herzog's ramblings Cool

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#12 - 2012-06-28 14:32:54 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
In before Herzog's ramblings Cool



I heard when the female cops walk up to his car he does a little flexing and pumping with his pupils causing the lady cops to spontaneously combust from the heat of excitement.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Alara IonStorm
#13 - 2012-06-28 14:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Sidus Isaacs wrote:
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Of course you can...

Not stopping at the STOP sign when you are the only one on the road. Totally victimless, yet it's a $200 USD Fine around these parts.


Thats stupidity :)

Another sign of how bad our system is designed/have become :P

What do you mean?

Because the entire point of stopping at a stop sign is to take a moment and check to see if there are any cars / people as well as to give any person who wants to cross the chance. Really they can't allow you to just not stop because you believe there is no one on the road. Big shock to the dead persons family when you find out you were wrong unless it's you. There is no reason not to stop at them unless your cars out of control at which point they will probably wave the fine after your life is saved.

Unless you mean the fine is too high, but then again don't ever run stop signs. Or maybe you don't think it is high enough...
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#14 - 2012-06-28 15:03:17 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Sidus Isaacs wrote:
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Of course you can...

Not stopping at the STOP sign when you are the only one on the road. Totally victimless, yet it's a $200 USD Fine around these parts.


Thats stupidity :)

Another sign of how bad our system is designed/have become :P

What do you mean?

Because the entire point of stopping at a stop sign is to take a moment and check to see if there are any cars / people as well as to give any person who wants to cross the chance. Really they can't allow you to just not stop because you believe there is no one on the road. Big shock to the dead persons family when you find out you were wrong unless it's you. There is no reason not to stop at them unless your cars out of control at which point they will probably wave the fine after your life is saved.

Unless you mean the fine is too high, but then again don't ever run stop signs. Or maybe you don't think it is high enough...


There is a point in stopping to check. But we can't assume there's no way to check without stopping. You could "slow down" to a safe point where you can look around, then accelerate. This becomes very clear when you are riding a bicycle with clip-less pedals (and no, I can't track-stand).

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
Alara IonStorm
#15 - 2012-06-28 15:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Shameless Avenger wrote:

There is a point in stopping to check. But we can't assume there's no way to check without stopping. You could "slow down" to a safe point where you can look around, then accelerate. This becomes very clear when you are riding a bicycle with clip-less pedals (and no, I can't track-stand).

We can however assume there is no way for everyone to check without stopping because like all things it depends on the user and laws are not written for best drivers but the worst.

Since there is no way to tell who is an idiot and who isn't everyone just needs to stop whining and stop at the damn sign before someone who thinks they are a great driver but really aren't kills some six year old.

It is not some wholly unlivable inconvenience to stop and make sure.
Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-06-28 15:12:32 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Sin Pew wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Sin Pew wrote:
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Of course you can...

Not stopping at the STOP sign when you are the only one on the road. Totally victimless, yet it's a $200 USD Fine around these parts.
There's a huge difference between crimes and infractions.Roll


Really, because the SILD/jail time feels the same.
Thank you for proving the OP's question is completely skewed, since it depends on the country and the definition its legal system makes of either crime and infraction/tort/whatever, as well as the legal process involved to carry out punishments when breaching the law.



I believe Stoic did a better job of clearing up the OP's question, especially in that this crime does in fact have victims as most of these generally do. You just seem to be hooked on differences between crimes and infractions (which are in fact a crime).

Of course I'll describe this from my side of the pond because as you said, different country, different laws.

Crime is a breach of law and it has several levels.

Infractions are on the lowest level and are known as petty misdemeanor. They are generally just tickets given out telling you to go pay up at the court house. Speeding, running red lights or stop signs, not yielding, no use of turn signal, jaywalking, littering, so forth. Mostly petty stuff.

Several infractions can lead to a misdemeanor. In my case it was several no insurance tickets along with having a suspended license because I racked up many infractions. This also includes petty crime like stolen property under X amount, drug paraphernalia, serving to a minor, avoiding taxes, and so on. Penalties range widely from payment to probation to jail time. For my part I was offered 10 days of jail or 2 days of SILD. Pretty obvious which one I chose.

Then we move on to Gross Misdemeanors which would include such wonderful acts like assault, burglary, robbery, minor fraud, distributing, and so on. Now we're talking big fines and over a year in jail along with probation.

Then you have felony, which is pretty much what these guys will be looking at. I'm pretty sure this part is obviously self explanatory.
Would mean you're English-American I assume. The term "crime" seems to be used for all offenses in the US, when it's specific to the grievous ones where I live, like ****, murder, felony, treason, torture, terrorism and so on, hence my reaction to Shameless' post.

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#17 - 2012-06-28 20:30:25 UTC
I assumed we were trying to convict someone of murder without a body. Leaving disappointed.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#18 - 2012-06-28 20:38:57 UTC
Ituhata wrote:
I assumed we were trying to convict someone of murder without a body. Leaving disappointed.



Don't worry, I thought the same thing when I read that title.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-06-28 21:29:07 UTC
Yay victimless crimes!! Like punching someone in the dark Twisted

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-06-29 08:25:24 UTC
a greyhat network intrusion. it's not creating a victim in any way. but it's very much so against the law. it's like if you were to walk into a house because the door was open, but then you don't look at anything, or take anything, they just do it to see what the reaction is.
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