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About this new ancillary Shield Boosters
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Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-06-28 16:28:12 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
VanDam wrote:
Took out a raven yesterday that had two of them fitted and he went down like a sack of...exotic dancers?

Just wait for the 60 second reload and BOOM. Why he decided to run both at the same time instead of saving the 2nd for when the first was reloading is beyond me, but in any case it's the same as cap injectors. YOU GONNA RUN OUTTA CHARGE AT SUM POINT BOYO! Keep shooting until boom?

I'd be grateful for enlightenment if I'm missing something.



The men is pointing that this stuff works with smaller charges exactly like with bigger ones. Not the fact someone can't use his brains to use one at time.

To make it simpler for you, the amount of rep is the same either you put 200 Cap Boost charges or 800, there's no point on fitting 800's when with 200's you can make the thing run longer and rep same amount par cycle.




So everyone now knows to fit 200's, problem fixed.




I like your solution Lol

brb
ROXGenghis
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-06-28 16:33:51 UTC
forestwho wrote:
Gary Goat wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

but surely them having to take up another slot is the compensation for the "reduction" in recharge time.


Well an extra slot is a pretty small price to pay for the advantage of having a capless tank.


hmm no not realy

This, because it's not just an extra mid you're paying for the second ASB. You will most likely need to sacrifice further for fitting mods or rigs as well.

Think of it like this: ASBs are kind of a cross between active and passive tanking. Don't think of it as an active tank, because it doesn't last long in most situations. But think of it as extra buffer that you can pile on real quick; maybe more than an extender.

May need tweaking, but not WTFOMG imbalanced at the moment IMHO.
Plaude Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-06-28 16:41:29 UTC
If I understand them right, they're meant as Auxiliary Shield Boosters, rather than cap-less Shield Boosters. They only work as long as you have Charges for them. Without Charges, they're useless. Thus, I'd rather use them as an Auxiliary Shield module, only using it while killing whatever neuts my cap, then switch back to regular cap-using Shield Boosters. But of course, if you have the money/minerals to spare, you can use those exclusively.

New to EVE? Want to learn? The Crimson Cartel will train you in the fields of _**your **_choice. Mainly active in EU afternoons and evenings. Contact me for more info.
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-06-28 17:17:21 UTC
Gary Goat wrote:
If they limited them to 1 per ship they'd be fine imo. The problem is that the reload time can be negated by fitting 2 or more.


This. If you equip two, and stagger them, you can avoid the long reload time. Since you don't need a shield booster and a cap booster, most fits have the extra mid slot to put a second ancillary shield booster. But until they change it, I am going to use the hell out of them.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-06-28 17:25:00 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
VanDam wrote:
Took out a raven yesterday that had two of them fitted and he went down like a sack of...exotic dancers?

Just wait for the 60 second reload and BOOM. Why he decided to run both at the same time instead of saving the 2nd for when the first was reloading is beyond me, but in any case it's the same as cap injectors. YOU GONNA RUN OUTTA CHARGE AT SUM POINT BOYO! Keep shooting until boom?

I'd be grateful for enlightenment if I'm missing something.



The men is pointing that this stuff works with smaller charges exactly like with bigger ones. Not the fact someone can't use his brains to use one at time.

To make it simpler for you, the amount of rep is the same either you put 200 Cap Boost charges or 800, there's no point on fitting 800's when with 200's you can make the thing run longer and rep same amount par cycle.




yeah, and that should be fixed. small should take 200's, medium 400's, large 800's. But the mecanic is awesome. And it's easy to counter as long as a battleship doesn't have enought 200's to last forever, due to size of charges.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#26 - 2012-06-28 17:50:47 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Can you quantify how overpowered they are compared to buffer/logi tanking? I don't think that anyone could, with a straight face, deny that active tanking is horribly underpowered compared to buffered.


Sorry, sir, but I'd quite like you to remove your underpants from your head. You surely must be insane? I have experience flying both buffer and active and, quite frankly, active is so much better than buffer. Unless you're flying in a blobfleet, but that's a different story.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-06-28 17:57:49 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
VanDam wrote:
Took out a raven yesterday that had two of them fitted and he went down like a sack of...exotic dancers?

Just wait for the 60 second reload and BOOM. Why he decided to run both at the same time instead of saving the 2nd for when the first was reloading is beyond me, but in any case it's the same as cap injectors. YOU GONNA RUN OUTTA CHARGE AT SUM POINT BOYO! Keep shooting until boom?

I'd be grateful for enlightenment if I'm missing something.



The men is pointing that this stuff works with smaller charges exactly like with bigger ones. Not the fact someone can't use his brains to use one at time.

To make it simpler for you, the amount of rep is the same either you put 200 Cap Boost charges or 800, there's no point on fitting 800's when with 200's you can make the thing run longer and rep same amount par cycle.




yeah, and that should be fixed. small should take 200's, medium 400's, large 800's. But the mecanic is awesome. And it's easy to counter as long as a battleship doesn't have enought 200's to last forever, due to size of charges.


Yep the idea behind is sweat and bring to small skirmish/fights ships that until now were unused (Cyclone?) but this doesn't make it a valid option for roaming because Cap Boost charges.
However, regarding this issue, I'd rather see this mod rep amount be affected by the charge type rather than see it limited in one charge size type.

For the sake of an example easy to understand let's admit an XL- Ancullary Shield Booster can fit 200/400/700 charges.

-200 should give 33.33% of total base rep amount, witch is a good trade off for being able to make it cycle more times

-400 should give a 66.66% of total base rep amount, same reason above and fair trade off

-800 gives 100% shield rep amount.

brb
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#28 - 2012-06-28 18:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Quit complaining they are damn useful and allow ships you would never expect to be active tanked to sport decent active takes. They make solo & small gang PVP much more enjoyable as well. Clearly a win in my opinion, It's one of the better things CCP as added to the game in some time.

They have their limits due to needing cap boosters and they will still melt when enough DPS is applied.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-06-28 18:40:26 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
They have their limits due to needing cap boosters and they will still melt when enough DPS is applied.


I believe this everyone around understood it.

What you fail to understand is what's wrong with the "thing" Blink

brb
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#30 - 2012-06-28 19:14:37 UTC
Rokh of Ages: (for low-sec use)

High:
Nuetron Blaster Cannon II x 8
Med:
Prototype 100MN MWD
X-Large Ancillary Booster x 2
Adaptive Invuln II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Fleeting Propusion Inhibitor
Low:
MFS II x 3
TE II
Internal Force Field Array
Rigs:
Processor Overclocking Unit
EM Shield Rig
Thermal Shield Rig

Hammerhead II x 5

1281 DPS tanked with one X-Large A. Booster running. 2509 DPS tanked with both running. Pimped out with damage implants - 1432 DPS with Void (12km optimal + 8.1km falloff) 1068 DPS with Null (22km optimal + 23km falloff) I have about 15 more days before Caldari BS 5 is done. Twisted It gets really sick once you add in boosters.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2012-06-28 20:28:49 UTC
I didn't know combat ships had infinite sized cargo holds.
Guillame Herschel
Buffalo Soldiers
#32 - 2012-06-28 20:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Guillame Herschel
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
To make it simpler for you, the amount of rep is the same either you put 200 Cap Boost charges or 800, there's no point on fitting 800's when with 200's you can make the thing run longer and rep same amount par cycle.


Does it use 1 charge per cycle, or does it use as many charges as it needs to fulfill the cap cost of one boost cycle?

Also, do ships with a shield boost bonus apply the bonus to the new shield thingy?
Xanral
Ajo Heavy Industries
#33 - 2012-06-28 20:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Xanral
I posted this over on FHC but I'll repost it here:

---
Decided to run some numbers to do a comparison between the dual X-L ASB and a Pith X-Type X-LSB and a Dread Guristas X-LSB. This assumes using navy 400s on the ASB (smallest choice for the X-L).

An example on my notation to avoid confusion: If you are +100% faster than a ship traveling 1000 m/s then that means you are traveling at 2000 m/s.

Case A description:
A 2 minute steady boost cycle (keep in mind that the ASB cannot boost all 60 seconds so its only 52/60 of the listed number in EFT etc) without links or crystals.

Case B description:
A 2 minute steady boost cycle with max tengu links (just resistance for the ASB as again we're looking at steady state and all 3 for the Pith and DG ones).

Case C description:
How efficient is the boost amount in m3. (assumes ASB never uses cap to boost and that the normal X-LSBs use only cap supplied by the booster)

Case D description:
The same as C but with Tengu links.

Case A-low neut (so the ASB cannot run off cap at all):
Dual X-L ASB is +40% stronger than the DG X-L
Dual X-L ASB is +1% stronger than the Pith X X-L

Case A-heavy neut (you can only get 1 boost on the normal X-LSBs a cap charge and are using navy 800s in a single T2 cap booster):
Dual X-L ASB is +384% stronger than the DG X-L
Dual X-L ASB is +245% stronger than the Pith X X-L

Case B-low neut (so the ASB cannot run at all off cap):
Pith X X-L is +52% stronger than the Dual X-L ASB
DG X-L is +9% stronger than the Dual X-L ASB

Case C:
Dual X-L ASB is +47% more efficient than the DG X-L
Dual X-L ASB is +5% more efficient than the Pith X X-L

Case D :
DG X-L is +5% more efficient than the Dual X-L ASB
Pith X X-L is +47% more efficient than the Dual X-L ASB

---

My suggestion for nerfing them would be to increase the cycle time on the X-L from 4 to 5 seconds but leave the boost amount the same(so -20% to shield/sec). I'd also never come out with a T2 or faction/deadspace version of them. It would decrease their ability to act as super boosters against massive sustained dps for more than 60 seconds and make them better in certain situations but worse than others in comparing it to certain shield and armor setups.

*Edit - Also it would be nice if this was in the proper forum.
Xanral
Ajo Heavy Industries
#34 - 2012-06-28 21:10:24 UTC
Guillame Herschel wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
To make it simpler for you, the amount of rep is the same either you put 200 Cap Boost charges or 800, there's no point on fitting 800's when with 200's you can make the thing run longer and rep same amount par cycle.


Does it use 1 charge per cycle, or does it use as many charges as it needs to fulfill the cap cost of one boost cycle?

Also, do ships with a shield boost bonus apply the bonus to the new shield thingy?


It uses 1 charge per cycle regardless of size.

Upon release there were certain things that did not apply, now everything that works for normal shield boosters applies from Marauder boosts to blue pill.

Also ships without a vamp and needing cap for guns and invulnerability fields are questionable fits imo as sufficient neuting will shut off your offense and a significant portion of your defense as you no longer have a normal cap booster.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2012-06-28 21:23:30 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Rokh of Ages: (for low-sec use)
…so what you've built there is basically a PST Drake with a bit more damage (and a bit less tank).
Kilabi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-06-28 23:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kilabi
Well i didnt explained because i thought that people would see the problem.

So why is ancillary shield boosters overpowered :

1.) Its not consumming any cap. (so immune to neuts)
2.) DPS tanked is quite huge. You can easyly PERMA TANK 6 guys in sub BS ships. (Dont tell me about reload time, PLEASE, you fit 2 of it and its done, )
3.) As it can use small charges, you can take in your cargo a lot of cap boosters (so you can tenk a very long time)

So basicly, with this new sbs, its easy to make a ship able to tank without any problems small-medium gangs IN SOLO.
And this for T2 price.

I would like to underline that now, normal active shield fits, even pimped looks so ****** up compared to this new boosters.

And if ccp doesnt do anything, when all people will have understand the overpower of this ancillary SB compared to other active fits, well metagame will be just ****, with people trying to make solo in same ****** fits.

If i pointed the fact that small/big charges doesnt change anything, it was to show you that this sb mechanics are ****** anyway and need to be fixed anyway....

Also, thats so boring to see people speaking without any or small understanding of the problem.
For instance, a nice one here :

Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Ancillary fits are ridiculously easy to kill if you go about it the right way.

protips for the pants-on-head ********
1) They have almost no buffer
2) They gonna run out of boosters eventually
3) They can solo-tank your gang, but solo tankers don't do well vs ECM.


1.) Like all the active tanks, and on BS, its still pretty decent.
2.) oh, really?
3.) HOW THE **** YOU KILL PEOPLE WITH ECM!!!?

For god sake, do we play the same game...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2012-06-28 23:56:32 UTC
Kilabi wrote:
1.) Its not consumming any cap. (so immune to neuts)
…except that neuts will still reduce its tank.
Quote:
2.) DPS tanked is quite huge. You can easyly PERMA TANK 6 guys in sub BS ships.
Maybe they should use something bigger than Mauluses then…

Quote:
1.) Like all the active tanks, and on BS, its still pretty decent.
It's about as decent as on a combat BC, which goes pop quite nicely.
Quote:
2.) oh, really?
3.) HOW THE **** YOU KILL PEOPLE WITH ECM!!!?
The two are connected: yes, he's going to run out of booster charges eventually, and due to the ECM, he's not going to be a threat so you can take as long as you like.
Guillame Herschel
Buffalo Soldiers
#38 - 2012-06-29 00:48:27 UTC
Xanral wrote:
Guillame Herschel wrote:
Does it use 1 charge per cycle, or does it use as many charges as it needs to fulfill the cap cost of one boost cycle?

Also, do ships with a shield boost bonus apply the bonus to the new shield thingy?


It uses 1 charge per cycle regardless of size.

Upon release there were certain things that did not apply, now everything that works for normal shield boosters applies from Marauder boosts to blue pill.



OK thanks. Navy 150 charges FTW. Five cycles before reload.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#39 - 2012-06-29 01:52:14 UTC
TheBreadMuncher wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Can you quantify how overpowered they are compared to buffer/logi tanking? I don't think that anyone could, with a straight face, deny that active tanking is horribly underpowered compared to buffered.


Sorry, sir, but I'd quite like you to remove your underpants from your head. You surely must be insane? I have experience flying both buffer and active and, quite frankly, active is so much better than buffer. Unless you're flying in a blobfleet, but that's a different story.


In your universe "blobfleets" consist of 5 or more ships?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Copine Callmeknau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-06-29 02:03:46 UTC
Kilabi wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Ancillary fits are ridiculously easy to kill if you go about it the right way.

protips for the pants-on-head ********
1) They have almost no buffer
2) They gonna run out of boosters eventually
3) They can solo-tank your gang, but solo tankers don't do well vs ECM.


1.) Like all the active tanks, and on BS, its still pretty decent.
2.) oh, really?
3.) HOW THE **** YOU KILL PEOPLE WITH ECM!!!?

For god sake, do we play the same game...

1) No, it's WORSE than the typical active tank (which is paper thin anyway), because if you are doing ASB fits correctly you are fitting boost amps instead of hardeners, and you probably won't have the CPU for a damage control. ie, much lower resistances, much less EHP, bring a damn tornado dummy.
2) Yes
3) You jam them, then you sit there shooting them for as long as you please because they are unable to shoot back.

For gods sake, have you actually flown an ASB fit ship?

There should be a rather awesome pic here