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New dev blog: The FW Exploit 2012 (or: How I learned about FOREX)

First post
Author
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#121 - 2012-06-28 18:01:01 UTC
I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:

1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."

2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."


But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)

And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.

CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.

CCP has not done this.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#122 - 2012-06-28 18:01:36 UTC
ooo

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Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar

Mechaet
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2012-06-28 18:02:50 UTC
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:

1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."

2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."


But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)

And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.

CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.

CCP has not done this.

And they never will.
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#124 - 2012-06-28 18:09:39 UTC
So would manipulating the price of a ship to receive large insurance payouts also be considered an exploit? Ex/ Atrons for 200m.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
Just let it happen
#125 - 2012-06-28 18:10:56 UTC
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:

1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."

2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."


But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)

And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.

CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.

CCP has not done this.


To those who have to ask, no answer will suffice.

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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#126 - 2012-06-28 18:13:04 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Vaal Erit wrote:
So would manipulating the price of a ship to receive large insurance payouts also be considered an exploit? Ex/ Atrons for 200m.

Insurance doesn't work that way.

e: To clarify, insurance prices are based on mineral prices, probably in a fairly similar way as CCP arrives at the estimated price ingame. However, they update extremely slowly. The insurance payouts you're seeing now are based on mineral prices several months ago, which is why the insurance payout seems so low.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Alain Kinsella
#127 - 2012-06-28 18:36:00 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
Goon tears best tears.

Not seeing any yet, really. I probably have one of the longest-running grudges with them (their war inSL), and I have to admit this is ending on a decent note.

Slightly torn though, was expecting something different, but I like the proposed solution (so far) even better. Thanks Screegs, and good luck sorting the long-term problem.

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).

Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#128 - 2012-06-28 18:36:30 UTC
Funny, I said this, and I got the "tinfoil hat" from you Goons.

Querns wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
What is the value of LP by itself?


It's wholly dependent on the market. Earning LP doesn't actually generate you any money. Other players have to pay you in order for you to convert the currency to a meaningful state, unless you deal in a barter economy of skillbooks and starbase charters.

I won't disagree that generating hilarious amounts of LP is probably not right, but classifying it as "printing money" is just patently false.

Consider the (unlikely) situation in which CCP either hadn't noticed or didn't care about the FW forex actions. We would have generated infinite LP* (*note: probably no more than 2.1b at a time due to laffeaux signed 32-bit integer, and also it's not truly infinite because even the implants we manipulated had an isk cost to acquire, but that's just semantics.) Assuming that we were terrible at the game and were unable to show restraint in cashing out LP, prices for LP items would have steadily approached the isk cost of the items as LP value went to zero. At that point, you could hardly consider printing infinite LP to be "printing money" -- it's worthless!

Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2012-06-28 18:36:55 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?

They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare.


I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder.


Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it.

they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them.

Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing.

Peace
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#130 - 2012-06-28 18:38:26 UTC
Sad.


Vincent Athena wrote:
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:

1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."

2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."


But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)

And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.

CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.

CCP has not done this.


To those who have to ask, no answer will suffice.

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#131 - 2012-06-28 18:40:46 UTC
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
Funny, I said this, and I got the "tinfoil hat" from you Goons.

Querns wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
What is the value of LP by itself?


It's wholly dependent on the market. Earning LP doesn't actually generate you any money. Other players have to pay you in order for you to convert the currency to a meaningful state, unless you deal in a barter economy of skillbooks and starbase charters.

I won't disagree that generating hilarious amounts of LP is probably not right, but classifying it as "printing money" is just patently false.

Consider the (unlikely) situation in which CCP either hadn't noticed or didn't care about the FW forex actions. We would have generated infinite LP* (*note: probably no more than 2.1b at a time due to laffeaux signed 32-bit integer, and also it's not truly infinite because even the implants we manipulated had an isk cost to acquire, but that's just semantics.) Assuming that we were terrible at the game and were unable to show restraint in cashing out LP, prices for LP items would have steadily approached the isk cost of the items as LP value went to zero. At that point, you could hardly consider printing infinite LP to be "printing money" -- it's worthless!



That's not really "tinfoil". Everything from the LP store ultimately has an isk cost, and it is thus theoretically possible to drive it all down to the point where it is no longer profitable. Note that this already happens in certain circumstances - because FW pilots pay twice normal at tier 2, or 4x normal at tier 1 ("normal" is at tier 3 and is equal to what regular mission runners pay), implants are actually a negative isk/LP value at those levels. You lose money buying them, a considerable amount of it, in fact.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2012-06-28 18:42:09 UTC
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?

They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare.


I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder.


Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it.

they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them.

Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing.

Peace


It appears neither of us gets the ending we wanted then.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#133 - 2012-06-28 18:43:52 UTC
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?

They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare.


I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder.


Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it.

they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them.

Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing.

Peace

You get a cookie for being the first "CCP=goons" poster in the thread.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#134 - 2012-06-28 18:44:29 UTC
Sreegs if the CCP Dev we deserve

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

None ofthe Above
#135 - 2012-06-28 18:48:01 UTC
Mechaet wrote:
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:

1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."

2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."


But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)

And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.

CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.

CCP has not done this.

And they never will.


Its been explained over and over again and its doubtful that saying it one more time would influence those who would seem to lack one or more of: the patience to read it, will to accept it, or the capacity to understand it.

Perhaps it would suffice for you that those most effected are willing to accept the ruling?

Honestly I think most folk think they got off a little light.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Peter Tjordenskiold
#136 - 2012-06-28 18:51:54 UTC
An exploit is an error in the implementation of a mechanic. But this wasn't the case.

When CCP is classifiy using mechanics for the own advantage as exploit, this is going bad for the sandbox principle. We are evil, harsh and dark in our attitudes. When CCP wishes a game for good guys in pink socks announce it, but don't think of us, we are willing customers paying for a nice game.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#137 - 2012-06-28 18:54:24 UTC
It'd be interesting to see a Devblog by CCP Dr.EyjoG on what he makes of it, got to be an economists dream/mightmare to see things like that pulled off.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
The Watchmen.
#138 - 2012-06-28 18:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
I just had an idea...

Currently (or well, before the fix) the average prices were defined by a rolling average across all transactions of the whole cluster.

How about we give transactions a different weight, depending on, for example:
- The less a single individual player has traded an item within the last day, the higher a transaction containing this item is weight
or:
- The more individual players have been involved in trade at the system/station of the transaction within the last hour/day, the higher its weight

I discourage setting it based on current trade hubs / main regions, as that would interfere with the player-driven aspect of the forming of these hubs and the market in general.
On the other hand, dynamically defining it on amount of items traded or isk exchanged would make it highly manipulable by few with huge capital.

-> Hence above idea. There may be many goons (or members of any given large block), but not enough to outtrade us "pubbies" without creating an actual and valid market.

Aryth, corestwo or someone else with deeper insight.. am I making sense?^^
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#139 - 2012-06-28 18:56:54 UTC
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it.

they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them.

Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing.

Peace


account actions are not a democratic process, hope this helps

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#140 - 2012-06-28 18:59:43 UTC
Mme Pinkerton wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Mme Pinkerton wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

Inquiring minds want to know how you determine the "real value" of an item.


It's in the blog. There's the current cost you pay for an item and there's the rolling average of the item's value.

You are already mixing concepts of value.

You really want to tell me that the cost at which you have acquired an item determines its "real" value but in the same breath you tell me that the rolling average of past successful trades is a measure of value.
What if I propose that the highest buy order is the true measure of value as that's the only dependable measure of how much other people value this item right now?

Anyways, I think your answer is a weak cop-out (in the best case a sign of your own confusion).

I think you should re-examine if you truly think that value is determined by any price because I suspect that you don't (because no matter which price you choose, it can always be manipulated - and you seem to assume that a "real value" which cannot be manipulated exists).

So tell me about your idea of market-independent value and I will probably tear it to pieces - after all there are good reasons for basically everyone (except for some neo-Marxists) giving up on (objective) value as a concept that exists independent of price at some point in the early 20th century.

edit: and no, I'm not splitting hairs. "Value" and "utility" are the concepts which form the very basis for most economic thought - yet my general impression is that an amazing number of people base their arguments off some modified labor theory of value and a cardinal concept of utility (both of which have obvious shortcomings and are prone to logical inconsistencies).


I think I explained in terms of exploitation where the issue was (BLOWING UP SHIPS TO MAKE MAGIC STUFF APPEAR) and I'm not really going to get involved in a philosophical debate about what "value" means. I'm a security guy not the philosophy or economics guy. I'm sure they'd love to have such a discourse. :)

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012