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The War of Lies, and the Merchants of Death
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Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-06-28 14:23:42 UTC
Do you even listen anymore, Thessalonia? Or are you more concerned about preaching your rhetoric and expanding your master's vision?

Yes, the war drones on. Yes, the conditions of "victory" are not set and yes, the Caldari should have conquered the Gallente some time ago.

I'm not fighting for conquest, I'm not fighting under some delusional concept that I can overthrow the tyranny of the Federation and create a glorious future for the Caldari people. I'm not fighting some proxy war of territorial capture and mock-up child's game of fortress.

There are other factors in this "war" besides conquest and territorial capture, there are other symptoms of this war besides nations suffering at the hands of other nations. If you haven't figured that out by now, then you're either willfully blind or you're simply not listening.

In short: **** off.

~Malcolm Khross
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#42 - 2012-06-28 14:32:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberious Thessalonia
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Do you even listen anymore, Thessalonia? Or are you more concerned about preaching your rhetoric and expanding your master's vision?

Yes, the war drones on. Yes, the conditions of "victory" are not set and yes, the Caldari should have conquered the Gallente some time ago.

I'm not fighting for conquest, I'm not fighting under some delusional concept that I can overthrow the tyranny of the Federation and create a glorious future for the Caldari people. I'm not fighting some proxy war of territorial capture and mock-up child's game of fortress.

There are other factors in this "war" besides conquest and territorial capture, there are other symptoms of this war besides nations suffering at the hands of other nations. If you haven't figured that out by now, then you're either willfully blind or you're simply not listening.

In short: **** off.


Tell me what they are.

Defense? The Gallente suffer from the same issues you do. They can't move in to smash the state, even if they take over anything.

Think with your mind, Malcolm, not with your heart or your honor. What, logically, are you going to accomplish here?

Edit: Also, none of this has anything to do with my Master's vision. If anything, the endless faction war going on amongst you lot is nothing but good for us. It might be that we are actually just a teensy bit more concerned for the good of humanity than you would like to admit, hm?
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#43 - 2012-06-28 15:19:46 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Tell me what they are.


You have answered your question yourself, Tiberious, in your previous post:

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Your purpose is not to win, it is to prevent a larger and complete war from breaking out due to the calls everpresent that "Something must be done about our enemies".


It is a tragedy that our nations call for ceaseless war, an usurpation if you like. Here though, at least, the war is limited in time and space. Better this than our fleets ravaging the densely populated worlds and systems behind the lines.

We are gladiators in a bloody spectacle. Better this than making the show a reality.

I predict your rebuttal to this will be that Nation offers a third way. This is a fair and debatable point, but I think it perhaps wanders a bit far from the original topic. That judgement is yours to make, however.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-06-28 15:23:06 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


Tell me what they are.


I grow weary of repeating myself. I've told you what they are, if you don't remember them and actually care to talk about it, contact me over comms later.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Defense? The Gallente suffer from the same issues you do. They can't move in to smash the state, even if they take over anything.


No, not defense. Defense is only the path toward the goal, nothing more and nothing less.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Think with your mind, Malcolm, not with your heart or your honor. What, logically, are you going to accomplish here?


The mind, heart and soul must work in unity while walking the path, to divide them against one another cripples the walker.

I've already stated what I'm striving to accomplish. In fact, you can find it spewed all over these forums as I'm often forced to repeat myself. Again, if you wish to talk about it, contact me over comms later.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Edit: Also, none of this has anything to do with my Master's vision. If anything, the endless faction war going on amongst you lot is nothing but good for us. It might be that we are actually just a teensy bit more concerned for the good of humanity than you would like to admit, hm?


I have no doubt that you consider your master's vision to be in the "good of humanity" and I have no doubt that because you believe that, you will continue to counsel and instruct others along paths that you consider "good for humanity." Do not mistake me for being blinded to your grander vision, however.

~Malcolm Khross
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#45 - 2012-06-28 15:35:56 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Tell me what they are.


You have answered your question yourself, Tiberious, in your previous post:

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Your purpose is not to win, it is to prevent a larger and complete war from breaking out due to the calls everpresent that "Something must be done about our enemies".


It is a tragedy that our nations call for ceaseless war, an usurpation if you like. Here though, at least, the war is limited in time and space. Better this than our fleets ravaging the densely populated worlds and systems behind the lines.

We are gladiators in a bloody spectacle. Better this than making the show a reality.

I predict your rebuttal to this will be that Nation offers a third way. This is a fair and debatable point, but I think it perhaps wanders a bit far from the original topic. That judgement is yours to make, however.


This won't prevent it, Scherezad. You know this.

It will, at best, delay it. A patch only works so long as steps are taken to address the underlying issue, and that is something that very few people seem to be willing to do.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2012-06-28 15:48:16 UTC
I agree with Scherezad, with one major caveat.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
... you now realize are fighting to provide an outlet before pressures explode into a worse conflict. As my colleague put it, you are a circus, a gladiator act.


These two observations are not consistent.

A war fought to forestall a wider conflict may serve some of the same purposes as a circus, that is, to satisfy the emotions of an otherwise restless population, but it is not at all the same creature.

When a blood sport fails, people go home unhappy. When a conflict serving as a pressure valve between great powers fails, people head for the mountains because "home" is about to get vaporized from orbit.

The State has abundant experience with both blood sports and wars.

I normally decline to participate in the former. We waste plenty of lives without making a game out of it (though I do enjoy the Alliance Tournament).

I went back "on the leash," as you would have it, to protect things I care about from the latter. If that means becoming a cog in a meat grinder, well, that's been my job from the start, now, hasn't it?

Some of us do this because we actually believe in the heroism of our role, but that attitude is not necessary for us to have good cause to fight. I don't care about who's "right," what's "just," or even who benefits from this conflict. I care that things I value will suffer if this fight ends the wrong way. If that means the fight grinds on, well, at least it's not ending wrong.

While it continues, I have a job to do.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#47 - 2012-06-28 15:49:29 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
This won't prevent it, Scherezad. You know this.

It will, at best, delay it. A patch only works so long as steps are taken to address the underlying issue, and that is something that very few people seem to be willing to do.


You're quite right - it won't stop while the current regimes stand as they are. This does nothing to the argument at hand, though. The patch you mention is still very much required. It only means that more work must be done as well.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#48 - 2012-06-28 15:56:27 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
What separates us from mindlessness is our capacity to oppose the game.


So... oppose the game?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#49 - 2012-06-28 15:57:33 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
This won't prevent it, Scherezad. You know this.

It will, at best, delay it. A patch only works so long as steps are taken to address the underlying issue, and that is something that very few people seem to be willing to do.


You're quite right - it won't stop while the current regimes stand as they are. This does nothing to the argument at hand, though. The patch you mention is still very much required. It only means that more work must be done as well.


I know. I'm working on it.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#50 - 2012-06-28 15:58:05 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
This won't prevent it, Scherezad. You know this.

It will, at best, delay it. A patch only works so long as steps are taken to address the underlying issue, and that is something that very few people seem to be willing to do.


You're quite right - it won't stop while the current regimes stand as they are. This does nothing to the argument at hand, though. The patch you mention is still very much required. It only means that more work must be done as well.


Again, I agree with Scherezad, though, again, with a twist. This could get to be a habit.

Yes, the pressure valve "proxy war" is an insufficient solution. Yes, more work needs to be done. Yes, the underlying issue needs to be addressed. Yes, eventually something has to give.

... And none of that is my concern.

I'm a tiny corner of a patch to a very large crack. I have my role to play. My role is to keep things from getting worse. That role does not involve games of statecraft (or Statecraft, as the case may be).

Fixing the problem is somebody else's business.
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#51 - 2012-06-28 15:58:12 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
It is a tragedy that our nations call for ceaseless war, an usurpation if you like. Here though, at least, the war is limited in time and space. Better this than our fleets ravaging the densely populated worlds and systems behind the lines.


If the dirtlings sitting safely on their rocks behind the lines crying for blood were actually to become acquainted with the taste of it, perhaps they wouldn't cry so loud.

But no, better to let those who share the home of space do all the killing and dying, isn't it? Better to make those who share so many common experiences and ways of life build walls instead of bridges between each other, and reminding them every step of the way how beholden they are to whichever flavor of dirtside rabble happens to be common in their native region of space.

Not only capsuleers. Not only navy crew. But millions of civilians - station personnel, transport crews, mining outfits, scientists, traders and plain simple residents of space, getting their lives overturned, ruined or snuffed out altogether, because a bunch of dirtling pricks in a grand act of cynicism decided to turn their home into a playground for bloodsports.

Better that, than to bend a single straw on the surface of some precious planet.

It makes my stomach turn.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#52 - 2012-06-28 16:04:19 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
This won't prevent it, Scherezad. You know this.

It will, at best, delay it. A patch only works so long as steps are taken to address the underlying issue, and that is something that very few people seem to be willing to do.


You're quite right - it won't stop while the current regimes stand as they are. This does nothing to the argument at hand, though. The patch you mention is still very much required. It only means that more work must be done as well.


Again, I agree with Scherezad, though, again, with a twist. This could get to be a habit.

Yes, the pressure valve "proxy war" is an insufficient solution. Yes, more work needs to be done. Yes, the underlying issue needs to be addressed. Yes, eventually something has to give.

... And none of that is my concern.

I'm a tiny corner of a patch to a very large crack. I have my role to play. My role is to keep things from getting worse. That role does not involve games of statecraft (or Statecraft, as the case may be).

Fixing the problem is somebody else's business.


I have to say, I am dissapointed to hear you say this, Aria Jenneth.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#53 - 2012-06-28 16:07:44 UTC
This is why I stand by the idea of politicization. If you didn't tell a Gallentean that the Caldari were the enemy, and vice versa, no one would be any wiser. How does a Minmatar know that they have millions of their brethen in chains, unless they were told?

At the top, individuals exploit these ideas and market them as propaganda to forward their personal goals. Ignoring the structural issues of capitalism that I have pointed out, the Federation has the largest pacifist bloc in any New Eden nation (the "Doves"), because they realize that in an ideal open-minded free society, no one should buy into what anyone else says without first finding the "truth" for themselves.

However, forces like the Black Eagles seek to undermine the truth-seeking that characterizes parts of the Federation because it will undermine support for the war, and compromise the current political direction. It's only be a matter of time before these realities are snuffed out by the popular movements. Duvalier and the Ultra-Nationalists did not last long. The much softer, but similar, traits of President Roden are harder to spot, but the overtures are the same, and so will be the end result.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2012-06-28 16:11:43 UTC
I ... see you've decided to stay the course, Natalcya.

You do still have that function that allows you to switch your capacity for nausea off, right?

In that case, my answer to you must be the same as to Mr. Thessalonia:

Quote:
I know. I'm working on it.


The manner of your "working on" these issues crosses paths with my role, and Khross-haan's, and, for that matter, General Inhonores's.

And we will kill you if you try it, Sansha, as many times as it takes.

You're something we can all agree on.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#55 - 2012-06-28 16:17:01 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
I ... see you've decided to stay the course, Natalcya.

You do still have that function that allows you to switch your capacity for nausea off, right?

In that case, my answer to you must be the same as to Mr. Thessalonia:

Quote:
I know. I'm working on it.


The manner of your "working on" these issues crosses paths with my role, and Khross-haan's, and, for that matter, General Inhonores's.

And we will kill you if you try it, Sansha, as many times as it takes.

You're something we can all agree on.


You can kill me all you want, Ms. Jenneth. It won't stop me from being right OR coming back to be right in the future.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#56 - 2012-06-28 16:20:14 UTC
Natalcya Katla wrote:
If the dirtlings sitting safely on their rocks behind the lines crying for blood were actually to become acquainted with the taste of it, perhaps they wouldn't cry so loud.

But no, better to let those who share the home of space do all the killing and dying, isn't it? Better to make those who share so many common experiences and ways of life build walls instead of bridges between each other, and reminding them every step of the way how beholden they are to whichever flavor of dirtside rabble happens to be common in their native region of space.

Not only capsuleers. Not only navy crew. But millions of civilians - station personnel, transport crews, mining outfits, scientists, traders and plain simple residents of space, getting their lives overturned, ruined or snuffed out altogether, because a bunch of dirtling pricks in a grand act of cynicism decided to turn their home into a playground for bloodsports.

Better that, than to bend a single straw on the surface of some precious planet.

It makes my stomach turn.


As it ought to. It is a nauseating situation. However, this does nothing to change the situation. The navies are theirs, and they outnumber spacefaring people greatly. The patch is still needed until this sorry state has been changed.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#57 - 2012-06-28 16:23:43 UTC
Your solution to war, M Thessolonia, is indoctrination, rather than education, which is my proposal?
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#58 - 2012-06-28 16:30:35 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Your solution to war, M Thessolonia, is indoctrination, rather than education, which is my proposal?


My solution to war, General, is to remove a persons desire to kill another human. It is a rather efficient way of going about it.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-06-28 16:30:37 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Malcolm Khross wrote:
What separates us from mindlessness is our capacity to oppose the game.


So... oppose the game?


Have I not stated time and again that this is exactly what I'm doing? Have you not observed so for yourself?

~Malcolm Khross
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#60 - 2012-06-28 16:46:20 UTC
You do not need to remove that desire by your methods, M Thessalonia. Doing so also removes the right to self-determination. Education is the harder path. The easy one is not necessarily the right one.