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CCP - Drop the Mac Client - Open Letter to CCP & Apple
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Raketefrau
ConHugeCo
Rusty Stargazers
#21 - 2012-06-24 14:01:08 UTC
Been using the Mac client for 3-4 years now.

Quite happy with it.

Do us a favor and don't deign to speak for tens of thousands of other people whom you have not consulted.
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#22 - 2012-06-24 16:27:41 UTC
Greetings

I have been playing through the Transgaming Wine wrapper since 2008, sure there have been up's and down's but I would not have it any other way. Not sure as to the motivation for the Post wether anti-Mac, anti-transgaming, or anti-CCP, I sure support the efforts of transgaming to continue the work! Kudos all around.

CCP please disregard an obvious attempt to discredit the efforts of a partner by a blatant Awoxer. Don't hate your computer...clear your cash...shove in more memory and press on!

vr
East

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
Raiz Nhell
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-06-25 00:59:23 UTC
Never used the Windows client.... Never want to use the Windows Client...

EVE has always run fine on all of my Apples... A 4yr old MacPro (30inchs of EVE goodness)... a 2yr old Macbook Pro and and brand new 11inch MacBook Air...


There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.
Dunbar Hulan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-06-27 13:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dunbar Hulan
Well, after spending thousands of dollars on a top of the line 27 ' imac .And then being faced with having to use the lowest graphics settings to get a decent frame rate, I back the OP. This is waste of time. Where's the response from CCP in fixing the frame rate issue? Answer ? nothing, nada, zip.

"Try this, tweek that, change this, blah blah blah" Tired of it all, just either ix it or don't, admit you can't or can and will.

Whats next ? "Guys, we need you to unscrew the back of your I macs and cut the blue wire, we think this might fix it."
Where's the sense of urgency ? where's the feedback ?
What other Industry would have this farcical level of client engagement ?

 ** Manchester United - Paul Scholes= Genius**
Gandin Grothe
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-06-28 06:00:05 UTC
I'm running three clients, no problems.
asariss
Heroes of Somewhere
#26 - 2012-06-28 14:10:14 UTC
Dunbar Hulan wrote:
Well, after spending thousands of dollars on a top of the line 27 ' imac .And then being faced with having to use the lowest graphics settings to get a decent frame rate, I back the OP. This is waste of time. Where's the response from CCP in fixing the frame rate issue? Answer ? nothing, nada, zip.

"Try this, tweek that, change this, blah blah blah" Tired of it all, just either ix it or don't, admit you can't or can and will.

Whats next ? "Guys, we need you to unscrew the back of your I macs and cut the blue wire, we think this might fix it."
Where's the sense of urgency ? where's the feedback ?
What other Industry would have this farcical level of client engagement ?


I have been talking with gm's as i have a 2011 MBP 17 with a radeon 6750 and have the same problems. It appears that they dont test or worry about the people that have the higher end systems. The gm said to me that there is a known problems with my graphics card and then suggested i update the driver's from intel and amd and use windows update ..... the mac support guy gave me windows instructions.

My laptop has been out over a year now and there telling me there is no support for my card. This is unacceptable. I dont care how few ppl have a mac with my specs, it should just work as it does for windows. People buy these computers for supposedly the performance, whether that be photo editing, movie work or playing a "native" game.

I could understand if i had a new computer that came out 3 weeks ago. but my computer is now 2 generations behind and still no support from CCP.

Ivana Twinkle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-06-28 16:31:03 UTC
Fabio Bittar wrote:


From what I've read in these forums, the Wine wrapper is maintained by a third-party, not CCP. Also, they advertise it as Mac software, or at the very least, they show you a Macbook Pro running Eve without saying it's a Windows application running through a Wine wrapper, which is misleading customers to believe this is native software. It is not, and it is not stable.

That's as elaborate an explanation as I can give you right now.



What you're saying is that you've never even tried.
Most of the time it's fine for regular duties, if not fleet fights on my macbook air.
Fabio Bittar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-07-01 02:21:49 UTC
Hi, this is the OP. I am here to clarify a few points as people have been making all kinds of absurd assumptions:

1) I own a Macbook Pro 2011, an iPad, iPhone and an iMac 2010. So no, I am not a Mac hater.

2) I used to own a Dell laptop with M$ Windows - I also have had plenty of experience with Windows in the past, and I have owned several PCs running Windows (from Win95 to 7) in my life. So I am not a Windows hater, either. I just happen to prefer Mac OS X (which is "Darwin", a derivate product of FreeBSD.. but whatever.. what matters is that I personally think OS X - and Cocoa - is a billion years ahead of Windows).

3) What I am questioning here is the practice of implying a product is made for a certain operating system when it is quite obviously the opposite. This is just wrong. There's no getting away from this fact. It is a fact.

4) Read number 3 four more times before writing your next reply. Not being pedantic, just kind of frustrated with what (some) people said in here (meaning they probably never read my post).

5) I am unhappy with the questionable business practice of implying a product is a native (made for) Mac software without so much as telling you that not only it's a Windows program, but the Wine Wrapper is also not theirs - they hire a 3rd party to do it.

6) If you buy a game that requires an internet connection, or a game that requires a 3rd party service like, say, Steam, you are warned in advance. This is not the case here.

Anyway, I've been messing with it (the game and the wrapper) and got around most issues. It's not as smooth as it could be, for (again) the obvious reason of this being Windows software, but it works.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#29 - 2012-07-02 03:24:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
1) If you want people to understand you, don't bury your lede. "CCP - drop the Mac client" will somehow may people think that you want CCP to drop the Mac client, not that you're picking nits;

2) 99% of Mac games have been ported to the Mac by third parties for about two decades now. It's what happens when the platform is a distant second. If you want to try finding games that are written specifically for an Apple OS, iOS has plenty of them. Mac OS X has hardly any, nor will it until a few years after Mac market share doubles or triples. BioWare outsources their Mac ports. This is a really strange nit to pick;

3) "Made for" means "runs on," not "was designed from the ground up for." Again, see almost every single Windows game brought to the Mac ever by anyone;

4) Are you seriously suggesting that an MMORPG named EVE Online should warn people that it requires an Internet connection?

5) Regardless of the above, my original points stand: The only way I can play EVE is on a client that runs under Mac OS X by whatever means, and; the fewer people use the Mac client, the less incentive CCP has to improve it. So, as someone who is counting on the existence of the Mac client, I will not react well to any argument that people who can use it should not, nor to any argument that it should be withdrawn because it fails to meet some ideal.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#30 - 2012-07-03 03:28:44 UTC
Yup, been using the Mac client. Works well. Wish they had a more dumbed down graphical version tho. I want to see wireframe!

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#31 - 2012-07-03 14:18:59 UTC
"3) What I am questioning here is the practice of implying a product is made for a certain operating system when it is quite obviously the opposite. This is just wrong. There's no getting away from this fact. It is a fact."

"Imply" is in the eye of the beholder. CCP is not responsible for what you think they implied. Why do we not stick to facts? Has CCP said, anywhere, that Eve was written for the Mac? Ive only seen " available for the Mac", "now on the Mac", "runs on a Mac" and such. Ive never seen "made for the Mac".

Any yes, I do agree that you believe they implied it was written for the Mac. Your belief is a fact. I do not share it.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#32 - 2012-07-03 15:54:03 UTC
Fabio Bittar wrote:
Hi, this is the OP. I am here to clarify a few points as people have been making all kinds of absurd assumptions:

1) I own a Macbook Pro 2011, an iPad, iPhone and an iMac 2010. So no, I am not a Mac hater.

2) I used to own a Dell laptop with M$ Windows - I also have had plenty of experience with Windows in the past, and I have owned several PCs running Windows (from Win95 to 7) in my life. So I am not a Windows hater, either. I just happen to prefer Mac OS X (which is "Darwin", a derivate product of FreeBSD.. but whatever.. what matters is that I personally think OS X - and Cocoa - is a billion years ahead of Windows).

3) What I am questioning here is the practice of implying a product is made for a certain operating system when it is quite obviously the opposite. This is just wrong. There's no getting away from this fact. It is a fact.

4) Read number 3 four more times before writing your next reply. Not being pedantic, just kind of frustrated with what (some) people said in here (meaning they probably never read my post).

5) I am unhappy with the questionable business practice of implying a product is a native (made for) Mac software without so much as telling you that not only it's a Windows program, but the Wine Wrapper is also not theirs - they hire a 3rd party to do it.

6) If you buy a game that requires an internet connection, or a game that requires a 3rd party service like, say, Steam, you are warned in advance. This is not the case here.

Anyway, I've been messing with it (the game and the wrapper) and got around most issues. It's not as smooth as it could be, for (again) the obvious reason of this being Windows software, but it works.



Greetings

I retract my earlier statement. You are correct, but as another poster has stated, they do not claim its Native. This is the world we live in when it comes to Mac Gaming. I do not claim to know exactly how it all works, but I believe that the performance issue arrises when Direct X code is translated to OpenGL through the graphics card or something to the affect.

The campaign I would support is to have APPLE work on coding that allows our graphics cards to work directly with instructions coming from the game. Not sure its even possible.

vr
East

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
Calma SaCow
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-07-03 19:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Calma SaCow
sound like This is mostly nitpicking over terminology. I have the game running gloriously on my MacBook Pro Retina!

What it comes down to is I don't care how it runs as long as it does and runs well. I think that 99% of the Mac player would agree. We don't care how it runs or why it runs as long as it runs and runs well. I would care less if a 3rd party ported something for it to run. hats off to them. I'm sure they got paid. Honestly I don't understand what this guys issue is other than he is all niggled of the wording on that package. All I can say to this is ......Really?

If I really wanted to fuss at someone why don't you fuss at MS and tell them to port DirectX to OS X!!!!
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-07-03 19:53:27 UTC
A lot have been said here.
Walls of text, too long to read all of them.

As long as it's playable on my mac, i'll play.

I just hope incoming extensions won't make the client a "I need an alienware powered mac of doom to play" :) :)

And to end with the "NON Native app" thing, just think about a MS soft that is rewritten to work as "native" on mac : M$ Office suite. That horrible crappy thing we got here !! ^^

Fly safe !

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
Calma SaCow
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-07-03 22:09:53 UTC
Pic'n dor wrote:


And to end with the "NON Native app" thing, just think about a MS soft that is rewritten to work as "native" on mac : M$ Office suite. That horrible crappy thing we got here !! ^^


Too True. I refuse to put office on my new MBP-R. It just aint gonna happen. They can re-save the file or something in a format I can read, or send it to google docs or something.

To be honest with you though I have not noticed that much improvement of the windows version over the mac version. I didn't even know that it was emulated until I saw this thread. I have been totally in love with this game on my new MBP-R I can play at 2560x1600 with everything on high and get excellent playability.
Goran Konjich
Krompany
#36 - 2012-07-17 13:58:48 UTC
using imac 21'5 for a year (mid 2011) and with every patch it's better

just sayin'

I'm a diplomat. Sometimes i throw 425mm wide briefcases at enemy. Such is EVE.
Meolyne
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-07-17 22:58:44 UTC
Meh...
I've started on Mac with Trinity, quite happy to have a decent ( but buggy) game on mac !
To those who said it's was stable, i'm just remembering how those hobo T2 lives were short ! D/C, graphic glitches, Transgaming errors, Crashs...
Ok it was playable, but i clearly dropped it the first day i put a foot in deep 0.0

I began to run Windows for Eve Online only last year then, slowly... it made it way. Now i'm starting under windows (finally dropped XP for 7 \o/) 95% of time Sad ...
... For Eve, and every others games we don't have on mac.

I can do that, so basically, not a problem for me right now. And i always remember it's One click for complete formatting Twisted

and, god i love fixed windowed mode. This is the first thing which keeps me from returning on Eve mac. Even if i know there are tweaked resolution for dual (almost) full screen now.
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2012-07-20 09:58:14 UTC
Fabio Bittar wrote:
To CCP,

(I'll be writing to Apple later)

I'll keep this short. You should drop the Mac Client. Customers see Eve Online on Apple's website and immediately feel like it's a quality product for the Mac, but it is not. It's not even an OS X application.

Fabio.


Yea what are you talking about? EVE has been running flawlessly on my 3 year old 15 inch Macbook Pro and this 13 inch Macbook Pro of my lil brother's. I am sure it will run very nicely in my new Macbook Pro with retina display that will arrive in 4 days!
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-07-20 10:00:09 UTC
Can we lock this damnable thread?
Marcus Barrick
Union of Protectorates
#40 - 2012-07-27 23:32:47 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Kilen Hurley wrote:
Why isn't eve a native mac application?


Vincent touched on it, broadly; the specific answer is that they use Microsoft's DirectX for graphics, and OS X uses OpenGL.

The two are different, and DirectX tends to be a little farther ahead because it's not maintained by a multi-company standards committee, but the people on the DirectX board include game programmers who try to keep it from being too different because that makes their lives harder.

There are other options besides a WINE wrapper; there are plenty of companies that have experience porting games over, and robust DirectX->OpenGL translation layers (there are some other little bits that would have to change, but AFAIK nothing major). However, these probably cost CCP more money than TransGaming's solution, and it would mean a possible delay in the Mac client every time there was a significant change to the Windows client.

The ultimate solution would be for CCP to write their own OpenGL layer and ship a DirectX build to Windows and OpenGL to Mac (and Linux), but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

The real, ultimate solution to this is more Mac users playing EVE.




actually up intell just recently Direct X has been playing catchup to OpenGL
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