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The future of Community and CCL

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Pipa Porto
#241 - 2012-06-28 01:02:49 UTC
Malcom Vincent wrote:

Perhaps, if the program had been running for a year we'd have experienced moderators so new mods would have someone to lean on in case of doubt.


Psst: The program didn't start today.


I am curious exactly when the CCL program did start. I know that I noticed issues about a week ago.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Spaja Saist
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2012-06-28 02:11:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Spaja Saist
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Sorry but I don't think you are doing much but validate our perceptions of the ISD to be frank.

ISD Athechu wrote:
To be frank as well my job isn't to change your perception.

CCP Navigator wrote:
It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums.
No Nav, don't worry. My perception is now very clear when it comes to the ISD.

[/quote]

Hello Graic.

I totally get it. You do not like ISD and there is not much I can do to change your perception.

My role is to ensure that ISD work for the vast majority of the EVE Online players. The concept of pleasing everyone is an impossibility so i am well aware that not everyone will be happy.
[/quote]


The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#243 - 2012-06-28 02:32:10 UTC
I'm actually curious, as it relates to my feelings on the subject.

Is there anything rule or policy wise preventing ISDs from discussing moderation (specifically locks and post removals) in private?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#244 - 2012-06-28 03:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Balak Ragnek wrote:
I'm all for giving these forums a clean up and recognise that the cultural reset is going to take a little while so some suggestion on how this might be helped.

1) Next time people log onto the forums have the forum rules come up and require people to read and confirm they understand the rules before being allowed to post again. Backing this up I would suggest a refresh of the rules to ensure comments and clarifications being made here are included.

2) Notify people of when their posts have been cut or removed. I don't think this needs extra explanation by the ISD in the first instance

3) If people have a series of posts that need editing then require further posts to be seen and approved by a member of ISD. At this point the ISD member can explain reasons for further posts being changed.

4) Perhaps a section in the new player tutorials can be added in game giving players some more direction on where to look for more info and getting involved in the community whilst of course pointing out the forum rules.


+1


+2

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Within 6 months the null sec alliances will make up the vast vast majority of the ISD, and given CCP's refusal to post any in-game information about the "volunteers", there will be zero ways to prove it, other than the circumstantial evidence of what was edited...oh wait, if it is edited or removed, and the poster banned, there will be no evidence.

The best conspiracies are the ones impossible to prove.

CCP, given you plan on banning ALL accounts associated with an targeted poster, it sounds like you are going to use the IP address or personal information of the targeted poster to nail all of his accounts.

So do the same indepth checking on your "volunteers".
If you find that someone who is in the ISD with a non-affiliated account, but you search on that IP or personal information, and you find that they have another account with chars in the goons, a pretty good chance their allegiance lies with the goon suppression team.


Sounds dangerously like a rumor

Mara Tessidar wrote:
I see a good market opportunity here for people who manufacture tinfoil.


Funny thing that... Given the cabal exploit thing was tinfoil till it was proven true eh?

ISD Eshtir wrote:
You are going off topic guys ....


Prolly wouldve been a better cue to snip the trolling THEN point out the off topic stuff but thats me

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#245 - 2012-06-28 04:17:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Lando Tarsadan wrote:


There is forum rules and we should all follow them. In the perfect world we would not need moderations. But since we need them i would rather see someone with no connection whom is paied by CCP uphold the rules rather than someone whoms hobby/spare time usage is within the same world as he/she polices. in my mind it creates a state of conflict we all play on the same server. and if ISD whatsmyname run into a person on the forum that he has a beef with in game. would be reason enogh to try and fit the vaugest rule violations on that person than his corp CEOs violations. (best part is the violator dont know the ISD person in game have a beef with him) I can understand the anonymoous need for the moderators as they are customers.


Not to mention the amount of metagaming that goes on in this game honestly
Does forum moderating become the next stage of the metagame?

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:

My reply was to Crunchie Attuxors yet you seem to be taking it personally, much like an alt character would. I don't know who you are but you're obviously someone who want's to incite a forum flame war with me.


I thought you were the champion of peace and tranquility in the forum, yet you launch this uncalled for, bellingerent, challenge. And try to turn simple agreement into a tin foil conspiracy about alts. In the same thread you denounce metagaming, you are metagaming. It makes absolute sense! (not)

Let me put it to you this way: you lose all credibility with me, when your words don't match your actions. Just because you are emboldened that a CCP employee unwisely sought to sanction your behavior, it doesn't mean we have to tolerate it.

So of us, unlike obviously yourself, actually want a productive forum, in which moderation plays a role that advances the interests of the community as a whole, and not used as an instrument for further metagaming.

Your kind of belligerent attitude is one of the things that should be banned for the forums. Yet CCP encouraged it defacto, and you have degenerated further and further.

This doesn't bode well for the whole "we watch the watchmen" idea... if even the very thread this idea is mentioned it fails so spectacularly.


OK, so you wanna make this personal.

This makes the 8th or 9th reply posted by you making insulting references and untrue statements about me and CCP. I lost count of how many false statements you posted about CCP, ISD and CCL. It's a shame you feel the need to do this in a CCP thread.

You keep trying to redirect attention onto me by saying I'm being confrontational. What's ironic is that you're the one who is constantly posting sarcastic malicious statements directed personally towards me with the intention to insult, berate and demean, not to mention constantly implying some sort of collusion or double standard by CCP. Not only have you been belligerent and antagonistic towards me, you've also been condescending and demanding towards CCP, ISD and CCL as well.

You have constantly over sensationalized the issue in this thread, spouting lies and posting rude remarks, all with the intention to incite others into rage. You keep saying you're all about the rules and trying to help create a productive forum yet your actions tell a different story. Clearly you're either trying to gain some sort of control over moderation for your own benefit or at the very least, extract some sort of undeserved self entitled revenge.

Quite frankly I had expected you to stop with the personal attacks after the 3rd or 4th reference, but you just couldn't help yourself. You and the 3 or 4 other characters going on the warpath in this thread are definitely meta-gaming this issue, intentionally looking to crucify someone. The only person who is actually emboldened by all of this is you. Due to the topic of this thread you think you can pretty much say anything and if moderation is implemented, you would cry foul and make up some big farce about double standard bullshit..

Your constant yelling and twisting things around, portraying everything out of context in an attempt to gain some sort of twisted advantage in this thread is a fool's errand. Your type of attitude and behavior is the reason forum moderators are needed. Guaranteed if you weren't hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, you'd be singing a very different song. But guess what, since you insist on constantly posting personal attacks and slanderous statements intended to insult and enrage me, you now have my complete undivided attention.

If you want to report this, I'm sure moderators would be interested in viewing your multiple posted replies that are directed personally towards me.


Given the lack of moderation amongst either of you Id say they disagree

Spaja Saist wrote:



The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site.


No; there never should have been them in a game that takes metagaming to the level this game does.

Out of curiosity, I remember there were other volunteer projects earlier, what was the volunteer system that someone got either CC info or personal info and posted it on Kugu I think it was?
Who was it that stole the EVE code?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Pipa Porto
#246 - 2012-06-28 04:25:15 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

ISD Eshtir wrote:
You are going off topic guys ....


Prolly wouldve been a better cue to snip the trolling THEN point out the off topic stuff but thats me


I think it's best we not encourage snipping of posts at this early juncture. They'll eventually get the hang of what can be quelled by that kind of comment and what actually requires a more heavy handed approach.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#247 - 2012-06-28 04:31:05 UTC
Spaja Saist wrote:
The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out.


Untrue.

The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game.

All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription.

For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules.

The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Pipa Porto
#248 - 2012-06-28 04:39:14 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:
The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out.


Untrue.

The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game.

All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription.

For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules.

The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created.



You really haven't been following the event's of the past day or so at all, have you?

The thing started because ISDs were snipping, editing, moving, and locking threads that were not (under any resonable interpretation of the rules) against the rules.

It got worse when a thread asking how to tuck in your shirt in the Character creator got locked in the fray.

When I troll, I'm perfectly fine with my stuff getting edited, deleted, or locked. When I srspost, it peeves me right off when my stuff gets deleted or locked. It enrages me when it gets edited.

Now, ON TOP of that. EvE has a rich and distinct style of posting a lot of that style is, say, biting. Trying to purge that style in the name of gentrification is a bad idea and will hurt the community.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#249 - 2012-06-28 04:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Pipa Porto wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:
The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out.


Untrue.

The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game.

All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription.

For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules.

The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created.



You really haven't been following the event's of the past day or so at all, have you?

The thing started because ISDs were snipping, editing, moving, and locking threads that were not (under any resonable interpretation of the rules) against the rules.

It got worse when a thread asking how to tuck in your shirt in the Character creator got locked in the fray.

When I troll, I'm perfectly fine with my stuff getting edited, deleted, or locked. When I srspost, it peeves me right off when my stuff gets deleted or locked. It enrages me when it gets edited.

Now, ON TOP of that. EvE has a rich and distinct style of posting a lot of that style is, say, biting. Trying to purge that style in the name of gentrification is a bad idea and will hurt the community.


Obviously you didn't bother to actually read my post. You wanna keep pushing this issue I will gladly pull up Eve Search and link all the reasons for moderation.

The problem started with people not abiding by the Forum Rules, constantly pushing and inciting rage, just as you are now doing.

I have no problem with the snip, edit, delete, move or locking of threads. Maybe if people reviewed the Forum Rules and posted replies in accordance with them, none of that would be necessary. I already mentioned the little mistake by CCL without having to go into detail. That could very easily happen to anyone and don't bother trying to deny it. CCP, ISD and CCL has already apologized about it and yet you keep ranting about it.

EDIT :

As for the posting style of Eve being Biting, that's your opinion which seems to be the major problem with this sub-forum. People need to read the Forum Rules and post accordingly. If they don't like it, they don't have to post in these forums.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Pipa Porto
#250 - 2012-06-28 05:51:56 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:


Obviously you didn't bother to actually read my post. You wanna keep pushing this issue I will gladly pull up Eve Search and link all the reasons for moderation.

The problem started with people not abiding by the Forum Rules, constantly pushing and inciting rage, just as you are now doing.

I have no problem with the snip, edit, delete, move or locking of threads. Maybe if people reviewed the Forum Rules and posted replies in accordance with them, none of that would be necessary. I already mentioned the little mistake by CCL without having to go into detail. That could very easily happen to anyone and don't bother trying to deny it. CCP, ISD and CCL has already apologized about it and yet you keep ranting about it.

EDIT :

As for the posting style of Eve being Biting, that's your opinion which seems to be the major problem with this sub-forum. People need to read the Forum Rules and post accordingly. If they don't like it, they don't have to post in these forums.


So the guy asking for help tucking in his shirt was breaking the rules?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#251 - 2012-06-28 06:34:17 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
I'm actually curious, as it relates to my feelings on the subject.

Is there anything rule or policy wise preventing ISDs from discussing moderation (specifically locks and post removals) in private?


Yes, and for good reason!

ISD Eshtir

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons

Interstellar Services Department
Pipa Porto
#252 - 2012-06-28 06:48:56 UTC
ISD Eshtir wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
I'm actually curious, as it relates to my feelings on the subject.

Is there anything rule or policy wise preventing ISDs from discussing moderation (specifically locks and post removals) in private?


Yes, and for good reason!


Wait, so you can't talk to each other about locks & post removals in private, or you can't talk to us about locks & post removals (at least the ones that involve us [tricky for locks, less so for posts])?

'Cause only one of those rules makes sense.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#253 - 2012-06-28 06:54:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Eshtir
Pipa Porto wrote:
ISD Eshtir wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
I'm actually curious, as it relates to my feelings on the subject.

Is there anything rule or policy wise preventing ISDs from discussing moderation (specifically locks and post removals) in private?


Yes, and for good reason!


Wait, so you can't talk to each other about locks & post removals in private, or you can't talk to us about locks & post removals (at least the ones that involve us [tricky for locks, less so for posts])?

'Cause only one of those rules makes sense.


It seems i need more coffee Big smile

We discuss it in the team and with the community team. We just can't provide feedback to forum users regarding moderation actions via the forum, eve-mail, email or ingame chat. A forum user would need to petition under the community category.

ISD Eshtir

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons

Interstellar Services Department
Pipa Porto
#254 - 2012-06-28 06:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
ISD Eshtir wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
ISD Eshtir wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
I'm actually curious, as it relates to my feelings on the subject.

Is there anything rule or policy wise preventing ISDs from discussing moderation (specifically locks and post removals) in private?


Yes, and for good reason!


Wait, so you can't talk to each other about locks & post removals in private, or you can't talk to us about locks & post removals (at least the ones that involve us [tricky for locks, less so for posts])?

'Cause only one of those rules makes sense.


It seems i need more coffee Big smile

We discuss it in the team and with the community team. We just can't provide feedback to forum users regarding moderation actions via the forum, eve-mail, email or ingame chat. A forum user would need to petition under the community category.


Ok, that's sensible.


If only we trusted petitions for getting initial change to happen, this wouldn't have gotten so ugly. Cry


Edit: fixed spelling in my quote Cool - ISD Eshtir

^^^ I wish I got to do that.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
David Toviyah
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2012-06-28 09:57:47 UTC
Kaeoz wrote:
Forums better place with mods working.
Not true. You might want to visit the Good Old Games forums. Little to no moderation and yet more civil than some of the the recurring threads that you find here.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#256 - 2012-06-28 11:48:14 UTC
Again the fun police strike:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126419&find=unread

I would argue there are plenty of other less worthy threads taking up real estate.

At least it was totally on topic of EVE discussion. Not guff about waking up next to avatars and getting likes.

This is a confusing place to visit.
Spaja Saist
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2012-06-28 13:16:34 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:
The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out.


Untrue.

The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game.

All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription.

For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules.

The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created.



You really are quite clueless. Using volunteers is a recipe for disaster which was just proven beyond a doubt by the mess they caused. Nowhere in my post did I say Devs should be wasting their time moderating the forums. Although after the abortion that is Unified Inventory I wish CCP Soundwave would have spent all his time on the forums and not dropped that turd on the players. Here's a idea, hire forum moderators instead of using biased volunteers. I think personally Hilmar should fund them out of his paycheck. After the Incarna expansion last year and the lie of an apology he had to make to the player base because CCP refuses to listen to it's players, here we are once again with them repeating the same mistakes.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#258 - 2012-06-28 13:17:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutter Isaacson
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Again the fun police strike:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126419&find=unread

I would argue there are plenty of other less worthy threads taking up real estate.

At least it was totally on topic of EVE discussion. Not guff about waking up next to avatars and getting likes.

This is a confusing place to visit.



Graic, be serious, that is a Tom Gerard thread. He is well known for being a troll, and if you notice he has picked items to post about that would stir up the most trouble amongst the largest numbers of people. It was immediately besieged by other known trolls, some of whom are posting under alts due to being banned recently, posts with little to no content and is thus of no value at all.

Whilst it is amusing to watch such things unfold, they always turn in to nothing more than flame wars full of vitriol and petty name calling and just waste space, not to mention moderator time spent cleaning it up every 5 minutes. The fact that it was locked by CCP Spitfire should speak volumes, the man knows his way around GD like few others.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#259 - 2012-06-28 13:40:21 UTC
Spaja Saist wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:
The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out.


Untrue.

The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game.

All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription.

For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules.

The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created.



You really are quite clueless. Using volunteers is a recipe for disaster which was just proven beyond a doubt by the mess they caused. Nowhere in my post did I say Devs should be wasting their time moderating the forums. Although after the abortion that is Unified Inventory I wish CCP Soundwave would have spent all his time on the forums and not dropped that turd on the players. Here's a idea, hire forum moderators instead of using biased volunteers. I think personally Hilmar should fund them out of his paycheck. After the Incarna expansion last year and the lie of an apology he had to make to the player base because CCP refuses to listen to it's players, here we are once again with them repeating the same mistakes.



I think you are taking this far too hard. Using volunteers is not a recipe for disaster as long as everyone understands a few basic facts.

First and foremost, no-one new to a job is EVER going to be straight off the bat awesome. Ever. In a job like this, where you are dealing with hundreds of faceless strangers who all have differing opinions, the line to tread seems to me to be a very fine one. You cannot expect someone to walk that line perfectly from the moment they start. It takes time, patience and support.

The people involved have apologised for what, quite frankly, was a simple beginners mistake. If CCP went with your suggestion to hire new, inexperienced forum moderators who haven't the slightest idea of what EVE is or how her community functions, you would likely see a much faster and decidedly more disastrous sequence of events unfold on here. I think that is the main reason why CCP uses volunteers from the community in the first place.

Now when it comes to moderator bias, various CCP and ISD staff have already made it clear that oversight of the ISD is strict and ongoing, just as it always has been. No ISD member can ban people, they can only lock, delete or modify posts, and all of that is done under the watchful eye of CCP themselves.. Any personal bias would be weeded out fairly rapidly, as would any wrong doing and these exact same rules would most likely be applied to any moderators that CCP hired from outside the community, mostly as they are based on common sense and good business practice.

As for the other items in your post, I will make no other comment than that they have no place in this discussion and appear to be personal attacks on CCP Hilmar and CCP Soundwave.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Spaja Saist
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2012-06-28 14:01:11 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:
The problem is quite clear to me. There should never be volunteer moderators on a for profit site. The is one more in a long line of bad ideas from CCP of late. Maybe all the unsubs from the mess that is Unified Inventory has caused CCP to try to forum moderate on the cheap. Well we've seen how well that turned out.


Untrue.

The CCL is providing a valuable service for CCP, allowing the Devs more time to work on the game instead of constantly moderating these forums. The CCL was active way before the new UI was implemented into this game.

All players agreed to follow and abide by the Forum Rules when they accepted the EULA and ToS with their game subscription.

For years there has been a relaxed enforcement of the Forum Rules by moderation. Consequently some players took advantage of it and abused that relaxed enforcement by not following the Forum Rules. Over the years that has incited more and more players to follow suite, eventually getting out of control resulting in the forum becoming an unproductive hostile rage fest, causing CCP to enlist help to enforce the Forum Rules.

The problem is that some players still feel that they don't have to abide by the Forum Rules and constantly keep pushing the limit, resulting in some little mistakes being made by the CCL which other players are now trying to use as justification for being hostile. Actually they're mad due to some players being penalized for blatantly disregarding the Forum Rules. If everyone had followed the Forum Rules in the first place, none of this would have happened and this thread wouldn't have been created.



You really are quite clueless. Using volunteers is a recipe for disaster which was just proven beyond a doubt by the mess they caused. Nowhere in my post did I say Devs should be wasting their time moderating the forums. Although after the abortion that is Unified Inventory I wish CCP Soundwave would have spent all his time on the forums and not dropped that turd on the players. Here's a idea, hire forum moderators instead of using biased volunteers. I think personally Hilmar should fund them out of his paycheck. After the Incarna expansion last year and the lie of an apology he had to make to the player base because CCP refuses to listen to it's players, here we are once again with them repeating the same mistakes.



I think you are taking this far too hard. Using volunteers is not a recipe for disaster as long as everyone understands a few basic facts.

First and foremost, no-one new to a job is EVER going to be straight off the bat awesome. Ever. In a job like this, where you are dealing with hundreds of faceless strangers who all have differing opinions, the line to tread seems to me to be a very fine one. You cannot expect someone to walk that line perfectly from the moment they start. It takes time, patience and support.

The people involved have apologised for what, quite frankly, was a simple beginners mistake. If CCP went with your suggestion to hire new, inexperienced forum moderators who haven't the slightest idea of what EVE is or how her community functions, you would likely see a much faster and decidedly more disastrous sequence of events unfold on here. I think that is the main reason why CCP uses volunteers from the community in the first place.

Now when it comes to moderator bias, various CCP and ISD staff have already made it clear that oversight of the ISD is strict and ongoing, just as it always has been. No ISD member can ban people, they can only lock, delete or modify posts, and all of that is done under the watchful eye of CCP themselves.. Any personal bias would be weeded out fairly rapidly, as would any wrong doing and these exact same rules would most likely be applied to any moderators that CCP hired from outside the community, mostly as they are based on common sense and good business practice.

As for the other items in your post, I will make no other comment than that they have no place in this discussion and appear to be personal attacks on CCP Hilmar and CCP Soundwave.


The difference is if you're being paid you have more of a vested interest to do the job right. The fact that this blew up in CCP's face shows they are not monitoring the volunteeers to the degree they claim. If they were this would never have happened. This whole thread is nothing more than CCP doing damage control.

I've been playing this game off and on since it went live and this cycle of not listening to the players, making changes anyway, players rioting over said changes then posting an apology with the promise to listen to players next time is getting really old. Why anyone would take CCP's word at this point is beyond me. It's like someone who keeps going back to an abusive spouse everytime they apologise as if they're not going to get hit again.