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Make Tech 1 Cruisers and Battlecruisers unable to fit heavy tank for balancing
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Ashera Yune
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-06-28 00:29:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashera Yune
Tech 1 Cruisers and Battlecruisers should get a limitation that does not allow them to fit to 1600mm plates (perhaps also 800mm) and Large Shield Extenders.

Allow faction and Tech2/3 variants however to fit 1600mm (and maybe 800mm) and Large Shield Extenders.

With this you will kill two birds with one stone.

Battlecruisers are no longer as close to a Battleship capable tank and obsolete many faction and higher tech ships.

The Large Shield extenders and 1600mm fits have become almost mandatory/standard on many ship fits. Removing these from the tech 1 line will allow better variety.

This is also be the beginning of fixing fitting issues for many cruisers and battlecruisers. Thorax will be more onpar to the Rupture as the Thorax is able to get equal tank and fix its strongest guns like the rupture can.

Cruisers will begin to be better in certain situations than battlecruisers. It will become more akin to frigate and destroyer relationship rather than frigate and cruiser relationship.

Battleships will have their roles and abilities less stepped upon by Battlecruisers as Battlecruisers no longer can get tank close to Battleships can. Battleships will gain a clear advantage in staying power over battlecruisers, rather than a small amount.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth."

 Kahlil Gibran
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-06-28 00:36:40 UTC
So we'll have Cruisers with a tank and Battlecruisers that are paper thin... Let me think... Umm I vote... No
Ashera Yune
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-06-28 00:39:08 UTC
IIshira wrote:
So we'll have Cruisers with a tank and Battlecruisers that are paper thin... Let me think... Umm I vote... No


They won't be "paper thin" since the standards will change when you can't put battleship plates and shield extenders on tech 1 cruisers and battlecruisers which are commonly flown.

This will become the new standard.

Battlecruisers have too much tank that it starts to reach Battleship Territory.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth."

 Kahlil Gibran
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-06-28 00:41:17 UTC
Ashera Yune wrote:
IIshira wrote:
So we'll have Cruisers with a tank and Battlecruisers that are paper thin... Let me think... Umm I vote... No


They won't be "paper thin" since the standards will change when you can't put battleship plates and shield extenders on tech 1 cruisers and battlecruisers which are commonly flown.

This will become the new standard.

Battlecruisers have too much tank that it starts to reach Battleship Territory.


You do know Large Shield Extenders and 1600mm plates fit on cruisers right?
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-06-28 00:45:04 UTC
Okay I reread what you said. So no LSE and 1600 plates on cruisers either. You realize cruisers will get raped by frigates? They already do but it will be worse.
Ashera Yune
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-06-28 00:48:36 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Ashera Yune wrote:
IIshira wrote:
So we'll have Cruisers with a tank and Battlecruisers that are paper thin... Let me think... Umm I vote... No


They won't be "paper thin" since the standards will change when you can't put battleship plates and shield extenders on tech 1 cruisers and battlecruisers which are commonly flown.

This will become the new standard.

Battlecruisers have too much tank that it starts to reach Battleship Territory.


You do know Large Shield Extenders and 1600mm plates fit on cruisers right?


Of course, as a result it becomes almost a required standard to fit the biggest plate/extender on it.

It becomes almost a mandatory fit.

This creates imbalance with ships that can fit their strongest weapons and 1600mm and those that cannot:

The rupture can fit 425mm and 1600mm, the thorax can only fit electrons and 1600mm.

THe Hurricane can fit 425mm, mwd, and 1600mm and have room for a medium neut. The harbinger can only fit FMP, mwd and 1600mm and has no room for much else.

The removal of this will bring ships closer and more equal together.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth."

 Kahlil Gibran
Ashera Yune
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-06-28 00:52:02 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Okay I reread what you said. So no LSE and 1600 plates on cruisers either. You realize cruisers will get raped by frigates? They already do but it will be worse.


So frigates can **** a Battleship too. What do you have to say about that?

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth."

 Kahlil Gibran
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-06-28 01:12:19 UTC
Ashera Yune wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Okay I reread what you said. So no LSE and 1600 plates on cruisers either. You realize cruisers will get raped by frigates? They already do but it will be worse.


So frigates can **** a Battleship too. What do you have to say about that?


A BS has plenty of tank to hold off a lone frigate till help arrives.

The problem with nerfing a class of ship it that you make other ships OP in comparison. Then what happens is people stop flying them.

With PVE a cruiser without a LSE... I'm not even sure if you could do some level 2 missions. The same thing would be for BC and level 3 missions. Where would this leave newer PVE pilots?

I do agree that BC are OP in general but you have to consider all the implications when you change something.
Ashera Yune
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-06-28 01:16:33 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Ashera Yune wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Okay I reread what you said. So no LSE and 1600 plates on cruisers either. You realize cruisers will get raped by frigates? They already do but it will be worse.


So frigates can **** a Battleship too. What do you have to say about that?


A BS has plenty of tank to hold off a lone frigate till help arrives.

The problem with nerfing a class of ship it that you make other ships OP in comparison. Then what happens is people stop flying them.

With PVE a cruiser without a LSE... I'm not even sure if you could do some level 2 missions. The same thing would be for BC and level 3 missions. Where would this leave newer PVE pilots?

I do agree that BC are OP in general but you have to consider all the implications when you change something.


Generally you don't fix LSE on cruisers for L2 missions, they are fairly easy enough without them.

Drone cruisers can make a short work of frigs. A neut and the web also a cruiser to trivially kill frigates. Caracals with light assault launchers are excellence frig killers.

But in general bigger ships have trouble with smaller ships.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth."

 Kahlil Gibran
Secktar
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#10 - 2012-06-28 01:21:49 UTC
Ashera Yune wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Ashera Yune wrote:
IIshira wrote:
So we'll have Cruisers with a tank and Battlecruisers that are paper thin... Let me think... Umm I vote... No


They won't be "paper thin" since the standards will change when you can't put battleship plates and shield extenders on tech 1 cruisers and battlecruisers which are commonly flown.

This will become the new standard.

Battlecruisers have too much tank that it starts to reach Battleship Territory.


You do know Large Shield Extenders and 1600mm plates fit on cruisers right?


Of course, as a result it becomes almost a required standard to fit the biggest plate/extender on it.

It becomes almost a mandatory fit.

This creates imbalance with ships that can fit their strongest weapons and 1600mm and those that cannot:

The rupture can fit 425mm and 1600mm, the thorax can only fit electrons and 1600mm.

THe Hurricane can fit 425mm, mwd, and 1600mm and have room for a medium neut. The harbinger can only fit FMP, mwd and 1600mm and has no room for much else.

The removal of this will bring ships closer and more equal together.



... I only fly a Harbringer with Heavy Pulse, a MWD, and a 1600. It can be done. You just need the skills.
Ashera Yune
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-06-28 01:27:09 UTC
Secktar wrote:
Ashera Yune wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Ashera Yune wrote:
IIshira wrote:
So we'll have Cruisers with a tank and Battlecruisers that are paper thin... Let me think... Umm I vote... No


They won't be "paper thin" since the standards will change when you can't put battleship plates and shield extenders on tech 1 cruisers and battlecruisers which are commonly flown.

This will become the new standard.

Battlecruisers have too much tank that it starts to reach Battleship Territory.


You do know Large Shield Extenders and 1600mm plates fit on cruisers right?


Of course, as a result it becomes almost a required standard to fit the biggest plate/extender on it.

It becomes almost a mandatory fit.

This creates imbalance with ships that can fit their strongest weapons and 1600mm and those that cannot:

The rupture can fit 425mm and 1600mm, the thorax can only fit electrons and 1600mm.

THe Hurricane can fit 425mm, mwd, and 1600mm and have room for a medium neut. The harbinger can only fit FMP, mwd and 1600mm and has no room for much else.

The removal of this will bring ships closer and more equal together.



... I only fly a Harbringer with Heavy Pulse, a MWD, and a 1600. It can be done. You just need the skills.


Without PG implants/rigs/mods?

The hurricane easily fit fit 425mm, MWD, 1600, and a medium neut without any implants,mods, etc.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth."

 Kahlil Gibran
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-06-28 01:29:39 UTC
Ashera Yune wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Ashera Yune wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Okay I reread what you said. So no LSE and 1600 plates on cruisers either. You realize cruisers will get raped by frigates? They already do but it will be worse.


So frigates can **** a Battleship too. What do you have to say about that?


A BS has plenty of tank to hold off a lone frigate till help arrives.

The problem with nerfing a class of ship it that you make other ships OP in comparison. Then what happens is people stop flying them.

With PVE a cruiser without a LSE... I'm not even sure if you could do some level 2 missions. The same thing would be for BC and level 3 missions. Where would this leave newer PVE pilots?

I do agree that BC are OP in general but you have to consider all the implications when you change something.


Generally you don't fix LSE on cruisers for L2 missions, they are fairly easy enough without them.

Drone cruisers can make a short work of frigs. A neut and the web also a cruiser to trivially kill frigates. Caracals with light assault launchers are excellence frig killers.

But in general bigger ships have trouble with smaller ships.



I can only speak for the Caldari when it comes to cruiser and BC shield mission fits.

Both my Caracal and Drake have 2 LSE.

When you start going to level 4 missions in Battleship is when you don't use shield extenders.
Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#13 - 2012-06-28 01:50:51 UTC
Ashera Yune wrote:
IIshira wrote:
So we'll have Cruisers with a tank and Battlecruisers that are paper thin... Let me think... Umm I vote... No


They won't be "paper thin" since the standards will change when you can't put battleship plates and shield extenders on tech 1 cruisers and battlecruisers which are commonly flown.

LOL

Yes they will, because I will still be pumping out 1k dps with my cane or 800 with my thorax, except now you'll have but a fraction of the EHP to tank with.

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Marcus Ichiro
IchiCorp
#14 - 2012-06-28 02:22:07 UTC
Balance cruisers and battlecruisers by making them useless? What?
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-06-28 02:41:14 UTC
Large shield extenders are NOT Battleship sized. Their armour equivalent would be 800mm plates.

EVE is what happens when the rule of law does not apply and Darwinism is allowed to run freely.
Jita Prices Alt
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-06-28 03:09:38 UTC
Somebody shoot the troll dead, please.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#17 - 2012-06-28 03:13:55 UTC
Marcus Ichiro wrote:
Balance cruisers and battlecruisers by making them useless? What?


Summer: the season for bad ideas to leak out of F&I.
Alara IonStorm
#18 - 2012-06-28 03:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:
Large shield extenders are NOT Battleship sized. Their armour equivalent would be 800mm plates.

800mm Plates are pathetic.

Meta 4 / T2 800mm Plate = +2100HP

Large Shield Extender II = 2625HP

Honestly I think they should buff 800mm Plates to about 2900HP because Invulns give more resists then EANM's. Restrict the 1600mm fitting to Battleships (Like 1000+ Grid) as well as a new XL Shield Extender for Battleships.

Finally adjust rig penalties and change the Armor Penalty to something not speed because plates do that enough anyway.

Ayeshah Volfield wrote:

Battleships will have their roles and abilities less stepped upon by Battlecruisers as Battlecruisers no longer can get tank close to Battleships can. Battleships will gain a clear advantage in staying power over battlecruisers, rather than a small amount.

They are not stripped in the least by Balltecruisers. They have a clear advantage. Every one of them has more tank and DPS at the cost of speed.

It is the Shield Hurricane that is outstripping the role of Cruisers by being as fast or faster then all of them fit with Armor and some fit with Shield.
Dracan02
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#19 - 2012-06-28 03:56:58 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:
Large shield extenders are NOT Battleship sized. Their armour equivalent would be 800mm plates.

800mm Plates are pathetic.

Meta 4 / T2 800mm Plate = +2100HP

Large Shield Extender II = 2625HP

Honestly I think they should buff 800mm Plates to about 2900HP because Invulns give more resists then EANM's. Restrict the 1600mm fitting to Battleships (Like 1000+ Grid) as well as a new XL Shield Extender for Battleships.

Finally adjust rig penalties and change the Armor Penalty to something not speed because plates do that enough anyway.

Ayeshah Volfield wrote:

Battleships will have their roles and abilities less stepped upon by Battlecruisers as Battlecruisers no longer can get tank close to Battleships can. Battleships will gain a clear advantage in staying power over battlecruisers, rather than a small amount.

They are not stripped in the least by Balltecruisers. They have a clear advantage. Every one of them has more tank and DPS at the cost of speed.

It is the Shield Hurricane that is outstripping the role of Cruisers by being as fast or faster then all of them fit with Armor and some fit with Shield.


you seem to forget that armor has more resists then shields do. tho shields recharge you need a rather specific fit for it to mean anything. and the speed drop from armor is'nt a good argument when shields have increased sig.
the reppers is were the issue is with armour and shields but as ccp is currently re balancing the classes this may change.
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#20 - 2012-06-28 03:57:12 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:
Large shield extenders are NOT Battleship sized. Their armour equivalent would be 800mm plates.

800mm Plates are pathetic.

Meta 4 / T2 800mm Plate = +2100HP

Large Shield Extender II = 2625HP

Honestly I think they should buff 800mm Plates to about 2900HP because Invulns give more resists then EANM's. Restrict the 1600mm fitting to Battleships (Like 1000+ Grid) as well as a new XL Shield Extender for Battleships.

Finally adjust rig penalties and change the Armor Penalty to something not speed because plates do that enough anyway.

Ayeshah Volfield wrote:

Battleships will have their roles and abilities less stepped upon by Battlecruisers as Battlecruisers no longer can get tank close to Battleships can. Battleships will gain a clear advantage in staying power over battlecruisers, rather than a small amount.

They are not stripped in the least by Balltecruisers. They have a clear advantage. Every one of them has more tank and DPS at the cost of speed.

It is the Shield Hurricane that is outstripping the role of Cruisers by being as fast or faster then all of them fit with Armor and some fit with Shield.

Remove ALL the variety!

But seriously, this is not the solution to the cruiser/BC problem. Not even a little bit.
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