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The Punishment for Blasphemy
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Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#81 - 2012-06-27 16:59:12 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
You seem to believe that morality is a choice. That, unless one can choose to do evil, good is without meaning. This is untrue. Good always has a meaning, and that is that proper moral behavior is beneificient to the community.


Your last statement is sound, but the ones before it are an assumptive error. Morality is a choice, even you stated that we hold ourselves accountable to that choice. However, good is not without meaning if someone is incapable of choosing to do evil, good does always have meaning and, as you stated, is beneficial to the community.

Where we disagree strongly is in the rest of your argument:

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

What you consider choice, IE the ability to do evil, is an error in thinking. It is an abberation.

In essence, it is a programming error.

I know you don't like to think of human beings as biological computers, but unfortunatly this is a reality you are going to have to live with, because it is true. We are wonderous things, don't get me wrong.


Namely this. Your ability to believe that you have the "right" to "remove the errors" of humanity is based entirely on the viewpoint that humans are nothing more than biological computers. You remove the humanity from us, you itemize and distance us. When you begin to see humans as "things" rather than "people," it becomes very easy to rationalize and justify just about anything. The fact of the matter is that we are not just biological computers, we are living, breathing, biological entities capable of great evils and great goods. Unlike computers and data, we are capable of these acts without being acted upon by an external force, they are decisions made from internal compulsions, desires and rationality among any number of other things in addition to external stimuli.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
So, if the ability to choose to do evil is a programming error, then any good programmer will tell you that it is right and correct to fix that error, and remove the ability of the program to, say, delete other files, or purposely destroy the hardware on which it runs, or simply crash and do nothing but take up space.


The ability to do evil isn't just a "programming error" so this entire segment of your argument is being discarded.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
All of the empires know, at least crudely, how to fix these errors. Prison is a clumsy attempt, working either to rehabilitate the errant program or to at least minimize its ability to do damage. Execution is another method, which can equate to simply deleting the wayward bit of code.

Instead of trying these clumsy methods, we simply go in and rewrite the code so that it works as intended.


This is a view built upon your own view and presumption. I'm not going to get into further debate regarding where this view is in error because it's essentially a repeat of what's already been said. We've completely sidetracked this discussion and I will remove myself from it at this point.

~Malcolm Khross
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#82 - 2012-06-27 17:00:41 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

And you have externally changed one person into a lump of decaying meat. You have to understand that your concept of 'Justice' is entirely self created. The only morality and ethics in the universe are that which we create and enforce ourselves, and this is why only groups that realize this can ever be rationally morally and ethically correct. To assume anything else requires, by necessity, the view that the universe is a fair place, and I would think that the Caldari of all groups would understand that this is not the case.


It pains me to see how different of a person you are now and how the arguments you once fought so vehemently against are now the same rhetoric you use. Of course I understand that we impose principles such as morality and ethics upon ourselves, but it is also these principles that keep the darkest aspects of humanity from becoming the overwhelming dominance. Without the impositions of moral and ethical treatment toward one another, then it would only be a matter of time before any semblance of safety and security melt away into the nightmare of amorality.

Upholding the principles of morality and ethics does not require an assumption that the universe is a fair place, only the knowledge that we are capable of being more than ravenous monsters hiding behind shrouds of rationality and reason to justify our darkest behaviors but also the understanding that we are the ones holding ourselves and each other accountable.

As for your remark about how the Caldari should understand the universe is not a fair place, the Caldari understand that hardship makes us strong but moreso that cooperation gives us the strength to overcome the obstacles placed before us, that understanding breeds cooperation and that both require a level of moral and ethical accountability between all involved parties or we scatter like dogs and prey upon the weak.

As I stated from the outset, we will continue to disagree in this matter.


Actually, we don't. You have misread me.

I believe that the principles of morality and ethics are absolutely vital to the proper functioning of humanity. I believe that these principles should be upheld regardless of, or perhaps because of, the inherent uncaring nature of the universe.

It is humanities proper place to thrive in spite of all this, and to do so requires (not wants, but needs) a strong moral and ethical underpinning to our species.

I am less convinced that we have a moral obligation to allow people to choose to work in any other fashion, however.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#83 - 2012-06-27 21:02:02 UTC
Please pardon the broken nature of my reply - I've just come out of surgery and am a little under the weather.

Kel hound wrote:
Instead people like Makkal Hanaya like to post reports about their "justice" and then go on about how pure and righteous they are or how people like me have no right to comment.


How do the Gallente manage to encourage an open society with transparency when you decry statements of activity? You may not agree with the Lady Holder, but if you protest too loudly she will simply stop talking to you.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I personally don't understand the need for the death penalty at all. Every empire is aware of the fact that a human mind can, in one way or another, be rewritten.


Both of these are deaths, Tiberious, you're just advocating saving those parts which aren't dangerous. The identity you edit is gone when you've finished.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#84 - 2012-06-27 21:36:15 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Please pardon the broken nature of my reply - I've just come out of surgery and am a little under the weather.

Kel hound wrote:
Instead people like Makkal Hanaya like to post reports about their "justice" and then go on about how pure and righteous they are or how people like me have no right to comment.


How do the Gallente manage to encourage an open society with transparency when you decry statements of activity? You may not agree with the Lady Holder, but if you protest too loudly she will simply stop talking to you.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I personally don't understand the need for the death penalty at all. Every empire is aware of the fact that a human mind can, in one way or another, be rewritten.


Both of these are deaths, Tiberious, you're just advocating saving those parts which aren't dangerous. The identity you edit is gone when you've finished.


I disagree with the premise that it is death, at least in the real sense. If you want to start talking metaphysics, you are going to have to find a different philosopher.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#85 - 2012-06-27 21:56:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Anabella Rella wrote:
So... let me make sure I have this straight; showing a human being getting killed live and in high-definition, is fine in the Kingdom but, it's not fine to show humans engaging in consensual sexual activity?

You do not have it 'straight.'

Firstly, I am not sure what your objection is to a public execution. Are you worried that a child might see it? Children are not allowed within the execution grounds and presumably the average parent does not allow their child to watch it. A curious minor could search for it on the GNet, but I'm not sure how a hanging is worse than one of hundreds of Galletean horror movies where people are eviscerated and mutilated in gory detail. Many of which are easily available.

The Khanid Kingdoms treat executions as solemn occasions, other nations treat the same as pure spectacle.

As for erotic material, it's available but restricted within the Kingdom. The Flesh has certain hungers and both slaves and serfs are understood to have trouble denying their Flesh. While this is something to be monitored, it's their duty to the Kingdom to have children, so their appetites are understood to be in service to a greater good.

What we don't have are the various grotesque and lurid depictions of degenerate sexual acts one can see spattered across almost every billboard, entertainment kiosk, and private club in Gallente space. And we certainly do not allow such material to feature the sacred flesh of the Empress.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#86 - 2012-06-27 22:17:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Kel hound wrote:
The rope is then placed around their neck and tightened. At this stage if they are lucky, a trap door is opened bellow their feet and gravity uses the rope to snap their neck, usually killing them. More often though the rope is places incorrectly and the "guilty" is left dangling in-front of the crowed to die a slow humiliating death by suffocation. Some executions have taken days to conclude, with the "guilty" dying from heat-stroke rather than suffocation.

I suspect this is something you've gathered from your favorite holoreel as opposed to reality.

Please check your facts before speaking. Or simply apply common sense. There's no way a person can hang for days.

The weight of the body typically snaps the neck. On the rare occasion where this doesn't happen, the pressure on the neck will strangle the person, which takes twenty minutes at most to kill them. Even then, the pressure on the arteries blocks blood-flow to the brain and the person will pass out in a couple of minutes.

The idea that someone could be hung by the neck and live for days...

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I personally don't understand the need for the death penalty at all. Every empire is aware of the fact that a human mind can, in one way or another, be rewritten.

It could be, but what's the use?

The Empire could probably kill every last person in its prisons and they'd still have a massive force of men and women for low-skilled labor. The Kingdom is smaller, but our execution rate is still low enough that keeping these people alive wouldn't benefit society.

If a soul has strayed too far, it's best to commit them to God and move on.

Kel hound wrote:

I would be fine with all this if it was kept in-house. Instead people like Makkal Hanaya like to post reports about their "justice" and then go on about how pure and righteous they are or how people like me have no right to comment.


Please show me where I suggested people 'like you' have no right to comment. I've objected to people chatting about an unrelated incident, but that's it.

This is an intergalactic venue followed by billions. If I did not post this information, opinions about my nation would be formed by men like you. Men who lie and speak from ignorance. The Scope would pick it up, and suddenly it would be a story about how an angry mob lead by wild-eyed inquisitors burst into the house of an elderly couple who were having dinner with friends, dragged them into the street, and then stoned them to death because they owned a copy of 'On Human Dignity.'

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.