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160,800 slaves murdered

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Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#81 - 2012-06-26 16:15:14 UTC
People have died. That's what people do. There's no particular reason to be upset.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#82 - 2012-06-26 16:15:52 UTC
Mr. Toviyah;

We haven't had the chance to interact before this point, nor have I ever met such a hard-line pacifist. I look forward to learning from you.

I understand your hatred of death, and I deeply sympathize with it. The murdered slaves we discuss in this thread lost their lives for no good reason, if a good reason could be said to exist at all. As Mr. Numenor has said in the past, we are diminished by their loss.

But I must agree with Khross-haan. The universe is at times unkind, with harsh lessons to teach. Though we may not wish it, at times we must choose who lives and who dies, and at times we are the ones holding the knife.

If two stations are threatened by an exploding star, and you have only the space to rescue one, that decision is yours and the blood is on your hands. You didn't make the star explode, but you made the choice of who lives and who dies.

If the passenger ship you are escorting is attacked and you decide to defend them or to surrender the grid, that decision is yours and the blood is on your hands. You didn't call the attack, but you made the choice of who lives and who dies.

Morality is found in actions, not inaction. Sometimes the choice is not between life and death, sometimes it is to choose the slain. To preserve life, to preserve hope, killing can become the noble choice. It is important to preserve the deep value for life you hold, while at the same time being able to end it. This takes practice and self-sacrifice, but is an important skill for the Capsuleer.

I'd be happy to talk to you more on this, if you'd like. Ethics is a hobby of mine, along with being a field of study.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-06-26 16:18:22 UTC
I think I like you, Schezerad. We should speak sometime.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#84 - 2012-06-26 16:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Edaine Numenor
Retracted due to dyslexic misread
Thank you, Ms Lagann for quickly pointing this out.
I will try to be more careful in the future.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#85 - 2012-06-26 16:35:17 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:


People have died. That's what people do. There's no particular reason to be upset.

I think I like you, Schezerad. We should speak sometime.


No, it does not appear that you think like Scherezad. "People have died. That's what people do. There's no particular reason to be upset." If you said this just to get a reaction, that is one thing, but if you mean it, you have a real problem. I hope that you will re-evaluate this statement and perhaps even regret posting it.


It doesn't appear that you can read, either.

Her words words were "I think I like you," not "I think like you".

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#86 - 2012-06-26 16:37:50 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Edaine Numenor wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:


People have died. That's what people do. There's no particular reason to be upset.

I think I like you, Schezerad. We should speak sometime.


No, it does not appear that you think like Scherezad. "People have died. That's what people do. There's no particular reason to be upset." If you said this just to get a reaction, that is one thing, but if you mean it, you have a real problem. I hope that you will re-evaluate this statement and perhaps even regret posting it.


It doesn't appear that you can read, either.

Her words words were "I think I like you," not "I think like you".


My apologies. Dyslexia. This happens from time to time.
Miss Nairn, I retract my comments

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#87 - 2012-06-26 16:39:26 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:

Finally, back to the subject of the original post. 160,800 lives were violently discarded. Soldiers, Warriors, Enforcers of the Law, Pacifists and non-Pacifists, anyone of honor needs to remove one's hat and stand in silence at the loss of these lives. Let us us agree on that at least.


I have not omitted the rest of your argument because I disagree with it, it was removed because I wish to echo this sentiment.

~Malcolm Khross
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#88 - 2012-06-26 16:51:49 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
I think I like you, Schezerad. We should speak sometime.


Always happy to talk, especially with those I disagree with. Feel free to send me a letter if you like.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-06-26 16:51:51 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Edaine Numenor wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:


People have died. That's what people do. There's no particular reason to be upset.

I think I like you, Schezerad. We should speak sometime.


No, it does not appear that you think like Scherezad. "People have died. That's what people do. There's no particular reason to be upset." If you said this just to get a reaction, that is one thing, but if you mean it, you have a real problem. I hope that you will re-evaluate this statement and perhaps even regret posting it.


It doesn't appear that you can read, either.

Her words words were "I think I like you," not "I think like you".


My apologies. Dyslexia. This happens from time to time.
Miss Nairn, I retract my comments

Don't mention it, Mister Numenor.

As for my statement which you hope I will regret, I believe we can agree that even horrible people can admire good people.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-06-26 16:53:24 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
I think I like you, Schezerad. We should speak sometime.


Always happy to talk, especially with those I disagree with. Feel free to send me a letter if you like.

I'll be in touch.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#91 - 2012-06-26 18:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Malcolm Khross wrote:
A pacifist would have simply watched as the ship and all aboard it were slain.

Neuting or webing the enemy ships, or repairing the fired upon ship are all ways a pacifist could help.

Lyris Nairn wrote:
Are soldiers, policemen, and doctors all murderers in your eyes? All of those professions include a lot of killing.

Being a doctor involves 'a lot of killing?' One more reason to dislike trips to the gynecologist.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
David Toviyah
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-06-26 18:07:25 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Anytime a doctor puts a patient under anesthetic for surgery, he does so with the full knowledge that he is taking the risk of killing a person either through the anesthetic itself, complications during the surgery, or an infection secondary to the surgery.
I’m gonna stop you right here, sister, because a doctor informs his patient about these risks and so the harm inflicted and the risk taken are both consented to by the patient (unless in case of emergencies ... but there the alternative would be death anyway). It’s quite telling that you have overlooked (either intentionally or not) my previous posts which clearly stated that apart from the intent the consent of the other party is equally important. If two people want to fight a duel to the death who am I to stop them? It is their lives that they are willfully toying with. My problem lies with those who dare arrogating other people’s lives to themselves

Malcolm Khross wrote:
You sacrificed all respect and merit you held when you said that policemen and soldiers are all murderers.
Why? You do remember my definition of murder, do you not? So if a soldier or policeman shoots someone to death then of course they are murderers in my view. Why are you suddenly so upset by this? Did you not realize this when reading my preceding posts? Or did you misunderstand something here and think that I consider all soldiers and policemen murderers?

Malcolm Khross wrote:
Your decision to incite hostile responses through insult and derogatory comments regarding the Amarr Empire and its leadership is counter to your proclamation for passivity as well.
Huh, what? Where did I proclaim passivity? Didn’t I do the exact opposite? You have me at a loss here.

Malcolm Khross wrote:
You may not condone physical violence, but you practice verbal assault and instigation. You are not a pacifist, you are only self-righteous.
Well, I might go a bit too far in my choice of words sometimes but that certainly doesn’t change the fact that I am a pacifist in mind and action. Am I self-righteous? I don’t think so but in the end that is probably in the eye of the beholder.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-06-26 18:22:19 UTC
David Toviyah wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Anytime a doctor puts a patient under anesthetic for surgery, he does so with the full knowledge that he is taking the risk of killing a person either through the anesthetic itself, complications during the surgery, or an infection secondary to the surgery.
I’m gonna stop you right here, sister, because a doctor informs his patient about these risks and so the harm inflicted and the risk taken are both consented to by the patient (unless in case of emergencies ... but there the alternative would be death anyway). It’s quite telling that you have overlooked (either intentionally or not) my previous posts which clearly stated that apart from the intent the consent of the other party is equally important. If two people want to fight a duel to the death who am I to stop them? It is their lives that they are willfully toying with. My problem lies with those who dare arrogating other people’s lives to themselves.

At this point it is clear to me that you and I are not speaking from common definitions. If you like, we can clarify what we each mean by the words we are using, though I sincerely doubt we will find common ground even in that eventuality.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
David Toviyah
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2012-06-26 18:27:42 UTC  |  Edited by: David Toviyah
Dear Scherezad,

since you seem to be familiar with the basics of ethics, may I (in order to save us the initial banter) assume that you are what we call a “consequentialist”?

Edaine Numenor wrote:
Do I agree with statements that cast the policeman and the soldier as murderers? No! The pacifists I know, do not feel this way.
You know some weird “pacifists” then if they do not regard the henchmen of war as murderers.

Other than that you said some true and interesting things.

Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Neuting or webing the enemy ships, or repairing the fired upon ship are all ways a pacifist could help.
Indeed. As I already said before, pacifism is not a stance of passivity let alone cowardice. On the opposite! Pacifists are in fact far braver, wouldn’t you agree? They face death far more readily, without weapons to hold it at bay. Dying for their convictions is vastly more familiar to pacifist than it is for soldiers.

Lyris Nairn wrote:
At this point it is clear to me that you and I are not speaking from common definitions. If you like, we can clarify what we each mean by the words we are using, though I sincerely doubt we will find common ground even in that eventuality.
Well, agreeing on definitions is usually the very first thing one should do in a debate. And while me might not find common ground that way, at least we could reenact each other’s argument better that way and reach an understanding (even if merely of each other’s positions).
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#95 - 2012-06-26 21:34:03 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Malcolm Khross wrote:
A pacifist would have simply watched as the ship and all aboard it were slain.

Neuting or webing the enemy ships, or repairing the fired upon ship are all ways a pacifist could help.


You are correct, I was in error to limit the responses to the situation.


~Malcolm Khross
David Toviyah
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-06-26 21:58:44 UTC
Oh come on, I told you so before her What?
Lex Arson
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#97 - 2012-06-27 17:50:54 UTC
As the CEO of Adversity, the corp in which CoReSol is a member, I can say that he had been tracking that particular Obelisk pilot for weeks now as it had been reported in intel channel numerous times, warping from station to station in Utopia; to what purpose, nobody knows. A trap was set, and when the opprotunity presented itself, was promptly sprung. If anything, it is the fault of the freighter pilot for her blatant carelessness.

There's no use crying after every mistake, you just keep on trying 'til you run out of cake.
CoReSol
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2012-06-27 19:02:24 UTC
A kill is a kill.

160,800 kills are still 160,800 kills.

Yeah, I did do that.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#99 - 2012-06-27 19:04:54 UTC
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you "The Capsuleer".
Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#100 - 2012-06-27 19:57:25 UTC
CoReSol wrote:
A kill is a kill.

160,800 kills are still 160,800 kills.

Yeah, I did do that.


I weep

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace