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The future of Community and CCL

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Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#201 - 2012-06-27 16:15:32 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:


Don't get me wrong, it would have its benefits, but more downsides in my opinion.


One word: metagame.

If ISDs used their in-game names, it would mean their actions would be judged by the rules of the game, not the forums. It creates an untenable friction.

That is different from the CSM, which indeed must be directly accountable.

However, there has to be a way to make them community accountable. Perhaps a quality survey like that used in petitions. That way CCP can have data beyond the (potentially) self-serving subjective assessment of the ISD.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" is a real problem.

We can both accept the need for policing, and be skeptical of the good intentions of the police, and in particular, certain police officers. While in real life this is a hard question, it shouldn't be for CCP, who are a software company that can play god. I pay CCP good money so they can do what I wish I could do, why waste it! :)

For example, CCP could compare the number of actions performed with the feedback received on those actions, and monitor it, with monthly reporting - much like the anti-bot /rmt efforts we all like and support but with more data. 
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Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#202 - 2012-06-27 16:17:23 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.

Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen.

Serious question: have the "couple of green recruits" apologized and asked for forgiveness? If not, it's rather presumptuous to assume that forgiveness will be provided where none is sought.

MDD


To be fair, while I agree, CCP Guard and CCP Phantom both provided apologies. And the ISD Admiral (Forget his name) also apologized. But it is true, the ISDs in question should ask for apologies if they want the community to forgive them.
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MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#203 - 2012-06-27 16:23:21 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.

Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen.

MailDeadDrop wrote:
Serious question: have the "couple of green recruits" apologized and asked for forgiveness? If not, it's rather presumptuous to assume that forgiveness will be provided where none is sought.

MDD

Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
To be fair, while I agree, CCP Guard and CCP Phantom both provided apologies. And the ISD Admiral (Forget his name) also apologized. But it is true, the ISDs in question should ask for apologies if they want the community to forgive them.

Fair points. I have no complaint with Guard, Navigator, Phantom, or the ISD Admiral. But an "apology-by-proxy" is a faint substitute for the genuine article.

MDD
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#204 - 2012-06-27 16:26:45 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'?

Well I know that if you call someone a f------ moron the result is a 6 month ban, but if you get on a stage at fanfest and encourage all the attendants, those watching via live stream to single out and harass a specific player in the goal for them to commit suicide in real life, the ban is only 30 days.
So I would say calling someone 'dumb' has a value of a triple cyber bully. I could be off with the conversion ratio there.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#205 - 2012-06-27 16:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
...
I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. ...
...
DMC

You clearly haven't a clue what happened.

Legitimate threads with no issues other than mild trolling (nothing worse than every other thread on the forums) from respondents got locked, for no reason, without the OP getting their legitimate question answered.

And then an ISD locked another thread and linked to a locked one saying we should post our comments there.


And then the rage of insanity that some of us wish had not needed to happen.
And now, those who were on the front of the rage machine are trying to get things better by working with CCP.

So don't speak when you just embarrass yourself.

Heh, I have every right to post my opinion and even without knowing the actual specifics, I still stand by my original reply which, by the way, was addressed to CCP, ISD and CCL. Definitely not to you or your alt.

I've been an active member of this community for 4 years and have watched these forums degenerate into the mosh-pit they currently are so don't try to talk down to me acting like you've been grievously wronged..

I know just exactly how quickly these forums can get out of hand and in those situations it needs to be nipped in the bud. Regardless of the small mistake made by linking to a locked thread, the intention is still forthright and just, despite what you or any other dissenting person has to say.

Trolling, regardless if it's mild or not, is not allowed as per forum rules. Same with duplicate topic posting. I can understand a situation of being overwhelmed by a flood of duplicate threads and quite frankly, I would have sent them all to 'The Locker' as well. I also would have reported various characters who insist on escalating the issue, much like you and your fellow cohorts are doing now.

Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation.


Except, you know, that is not the case.

For someone claiming, implicitly, to have a high horse, you are actually taking this opportunity to engage in the same behavior.

If you would have been active in the last few days, you would have seen what we are talking about. The issue was not that there were rule violations. The issue was that rules were being interpreted and enforced in manners that rather than promote better flow in the forums, they made matters worse.

Quite frankly, your post is also has an "offensive disrespectful anti social attitude" in so far as is lumps together those with legitimate concerns with the few bad apples and confuses the legitimate issues of moderation being needed and the ISD being a good way to do that, with the issue of ISD incompetence and lack of planning on the part of CCP.

And furthermore, it uses tones that are not far from what you denounce.

Bottom line: you are not practicing what you preach and your post is not helpful and is in fact ignorant of the facts at hand.


Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. My reply was a generalization addressed to CCP, ISD and CCL. The problem here is people like you who keep ranting and raving, definitely blowing things out of proportion and basically instigating a flame war. You not only sow the seeds of discontent, you make personal attacks against CCP, ISD, CCL and me.

Please read my reply to Corina Jarr since it also applies to you as well.



Keep ranting and raving
You not only sow the seeds of discontent, you make personal attacks against CCP, ISD, CCL and me.

Who are you to accused us of anything?
You sound exacly like the players you where stereotyping.

The Tears Must Flow
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#206 - 2012-06-27 16:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Corina Jarr
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
...
I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. ...
...
DMC

You clearly haven't a clue what happened.

Legitimate threads with no issues other than mild trolling (nothing worse than every other thread on the forums) from respondents got locked, for no reason, without the OP getting their legitimate question answered.

And then an ISD locked another thread and linked to a locked one saying we should post our comments there.


And then the rage of insanity that some of us wish had not needed to happen.
And now, those who were on the front of the rage machine are trying to get things better by working with CCP.

So don't speak when you just embarrass yourself.

Heh, I have every right to post my opinion and even without knowing the actual specifics, I still stand by my original reply which, by the way, was addressed to CCP, ISD and CCL. Definitely not to you or your alt.

I've been an active member of this community for 4 years and have watched these forums degenerate into the mosh-pit they currently are so don't try to talk down to me acting like you've been grievously wronged..

I know just exactly how quickly these forums can get out of hand and in those situations it needs to be nipped in the bud. Regardless of the small mistake made by linking to a locked thread, the intention is still forthright and just, despite what you or any other dissenting person has to say.

Trolling, regardless if it's mild or not, is not allowed as per forum rules. Same with duplicate topic posting. I can understand a situation of being overwhelmed by a flood of duplicate threads and quite frankly, I would have sent them all to 'The Locker' as well. I also would have reported various characters who insist on escalating the issue, much like you and your fellow cohorts are doing now.


I apologize for the harshness of my reply. Was letting events of the day bleed my feelings onto the forums.

I do agree that CCP and crew should take action to remove trolling posts. However not by locking threads and then saying they were locked for a completely different and incorrect reason. Whether the intention was good, the effects were not. It caused distrust in the ISDs, such that will be hard for some to let go of.
If a cop shoots a bystander, he still gets reprimanded even if his intention was to get a dangerous terrorist (note, just using it as an example, this is nowhere near that scale). And the public reacts much like the community in general did a few days ago.

If you follow my posts on this issue, you would see that I have been at the front of trying to help, not hinder, CCPs efforts. I want the ISDs to remain, just with more effort made to clearly communicate what is going on, rather than the near useless one liners. I certainly have not been escalating the issue. I had no part in the insanity, and would have tried to calm folks down if I had been online.

I had no issue with the majority of your post, just the bit where you praised the ISDs without knowing what had happened. I again apologize for the way I tried to get my point across. It could have been better.


Also, I don't have an alt.

EDIT: I also would like to apologize to CCP, I don't mean to add to the mess if my posts do that...
ISD Eshtir
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#207 - 2012-06-27 16:58:40 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.

Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen.

Serious question: have the "couple of green recruits" apologized and asked for forgiveness? If not, it's rather presumptuous to assume that forgiveness will be provided where none is sought.

MDD


To be fair, while I agree, CCP Guard and CCP Phantom both provided apologies. And the ISD Admiral (Forget his name) also apologized. But it is true, the ISDs in question should ask for apologies if they want the community to forgive them.


My name is Eshtir and as you said correctly, i am the Vice Admiral of the CCL team and i am responsible for the CCL volunteers Shocked (how can you not know this Sad )

Since the CCL volunteers get to carry out my orders, you already have mine in the very first page of the thread. I am sorry to mention it, but this is turning into a witch hunt and that is not what i wish for my volunteers. People ask for apologies, yet carry out the witty remarks about said ISD in other threads, their forum signatures and in posts. So i ask you, what difference would it make? Will people stop to abuse and threaten said volunteer?

Will the training effort be doubled and be way more indepth? Yes!
Will you believe my words? Probably not, but i will let my actions speak for me. Though that will take some time.

I always have high regards for this community, this is what fuels me as volunteer for over 7 years and i plan to continue to do my job here.

ISD staff will never use their ingame identities and CCP Guard already adressed why, i see no need to repeat that.

ISD Eshtir

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons

Interstellar Services Department
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2012-06-27 17:01:54 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:

In DMC's post, he admits that he is unaware of the particulars of the incidents that occurred, but then goes on to praise the work of the ISD. I think I'm not alone in my distaste for that unsupportable "fanboi-ism"; it tends to color my judgment of the rest of his words.


I praised the job they've been doing in cleaning up the forums, which has been very noticeable over the past few weeks. What I find distasteful is the "fanboi-ism" lynch-mob mentality that's currently being instigated by a few vocal players.

MailDeadDrop wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
To be fair, while I agree, CCP Guard and CCP Phantom both provided apologies. And the ISD Admiral (Forget his name) also apologized. But it is true, the ISDs in question should ask for apologies if they want the community to forgive them.

Fair points. I have no complaint with Guard, Navigator, Phantom, or the ISD Admiral. But an "apology-by-proxy" is a faint substitute for the genuine article.

MDD


Were either of you grievously wronged by their actions? They have nothing to apologize for, definitely not because a couple of players demand it.

Vaju Enki wrote:


Keep ranting and raving
You not only sow the seeds of discontent, you make personal attacks against CCP, ISD, CCL and me.

Who are you to accused me of anything?
You sound exacly like the players you where stereotyping.

My reply was to Crunchie Attuxors yet you seem to be taking it personally, much like an alt character would. I don't know who you are but you're obviously someone who want's to incite a forum flame war with me.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#209 - 2012-06-27 17:05:40 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:


Don't get me wrong, it would have its benefits, but more downsides in my opinion.


One word: metagame.

If ISDs used their in-game names, it would mean their actions would be judged by the rules of the game, not the forums. It creates an untenable friction.

That is different from the CSM, which indeed must be directly accountable.

However, there has to be a way to make them community accountable. Perhaps a quality survey like that used in petitions. That way CCP can have data beyond the (potentially) self-serving subjective assessment of the ISD.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" is a real problem.

We can both accept the need for policing, and be skeptical of the good intentions of the police, and in particular, certain police officers. While in real life this is a hard question, it shouldn't be for CCP, who are a software company that can play god. I pay CCP good money so they can do what I wish I could do, why waste it! :)

For example, CCP could compare the number of actions performed with the feedback received on those actions, and monitor it, with monthly reporting - much like the anti-bot /rmt efforts we all like and support but with more data.


You make some good points and what I forgot to add in my previous reply is relevant to this...that while ISD are not here under their own player names and the community therefore doesn't have the same ability as they would otherwise, to pass their own judgment on their objectivity of any given ISD, we certainly have that ability. Along with taking care to select people with a history indicative of strong moral fiber, ISD are mentored and monitored by us. We are also well equipped to scrutinize any accusations of foul play should someone from the community have such suspicions. We watch the watchmen ;)

Not that I'm terribly worried about such a scenario ever playing out , but just the same as when it comes to staff, we like to have the tools and processes in place in case something happens and we want you guys to know that we do have them in place.

Bear

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#210 - 2012-06-27 17:35:13 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:


Who are you to accused us of anything?
You sound exacly like the players you where stereotyping.


Not only that, he is doing it with the support and encouragement of a representative of the company we pay money to.

It seems to me, there is license to be abusive as long as it is in the service of CCP and its employees and volunteers.
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Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#211 - 2012-06-27 17:37:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
It's okay to call someone stupid, as long as they are stupid and you can back that statement up with a witty post, such as pointing out a nameless-yet-well-known player's prior history as a roleplaying spacehooker.


Which becomes an issue when "said history" is a Goonswarm fabrication for a campaign for harrassment that has in the past completely swept beyond these forums into the realm of RL cyber-stalking and poison pen letters to employers.


As I've told you before Jade, you're in no position to be throwing stones on this issue since the same happened to CCP Sreegs in his former job after he clashed with you on these very forums and the CSM.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it: Somebody goes to your employer and tells them embarrassing stories about what you supposedly do on the internet, you yell from every rooftop that its a Goonswarm conspiracy and we as an alliance are collectively to blame. Somebody does the same to Sreegs and you throw your hands up and say 'nothing to do with me or my alliance, could have been anyone, its a big internet out there'.


speaking of which; isnt that exactly what mittens was crying about on EVE Radio? How cyberbulling is the same as child molesting and having that tag can damage your ability to have a job? Looks like you guys can dish it out but as for taking it........

CCP Guard wrote:
We watch the watchmen ;)


Who watches those who watch the watchmen O.o

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#212 - 2012-06-27 17:41:52 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
We watch the watchmen ;)


Yes, but for example, right in this thread, CCP Navigator supported a nasty attack by a player on those who have shown displeasure with CCP, seemingly encouraging further nasty attacks in this thread by said player.

So you see the problem?

The ISD, devoid of open community evaluations, become the tool of a clique.

I am all for rules, but I am for non-arbitrary enforcement. And while mistakes are inevitable, they can also be prevented and mitigated by processes and technology - and crowdsourcing.
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Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#213 - 2012-06-27 17:46:07 UTC
Balak Ragnek wrote:
I'm all for giving these forums a clean up and recognise that the cultural reset is going to take a little while so some suggestion on how this might be helped.

1) Next time people log onto the forums have the forum rules come up and require people to read and confirm they understand the rules before being allowed to post again. Backing this up I would suggest a refresh of the rules to ensure comments and clarifications being made here are included.

2) Notify people of when their posts have been cut or removed. I don't think this needs extra explanation by the ISD in the first instance

3) If people have a series of posts that need editing then require further posts to be seen and approved by a member of ISD. At this point the ISD member can explain reasons for further posts being changed.

4) Perhaps a section in the new player tutorials can be added in game giving players some more direction on where to look for more info and getting involved in the community whilst of course pointing out the forum rules.


+1
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#214 - 2012-06-27 17:55:22 UTC
Within 6 months the null sec alliances will make up the vast vast majority of the ISD, and given CCP's refusal to post any in-game information about the "volunteers", there will be zero ways to prove it, other than the circumstantial evidence of what was edited...oh wait, if it is edited or removed, and the poster banned, there will be no evidence.

The best conspiracies are the ones impossible to prove.

CCP, given you plan on banning ALL accounts associated with an targeted poster, it sounds like you are going to use the IP address or personal information of the targeted poster to nail all of his accounts.

So do the same indepth checking on your "volunteers".
If you find that someone who is in the ISD with a non-affiliated account, but you search on that IP or personal information, and you find that they have another account with chars in the goons, a pretty good chance their allegiance lies with the goon suppression team.
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#215 - 2012-06-27 18:07:27 UTC
I see a good market opportunity here for people who manufacture tinfoil.
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#216 - 2012-06-27 18:16:01 UTC
The time has come to "face the music". I look back at some of my actions and find that I wish I could retract them. All I can do is to issue a heart-felt apology for any errors that I have made and make a solemn promise to try to do better.

A bit of information about myself. I am one of the older players of EVE and have been away for a period due to a massive heart attack. I originally started with a corporation that played extensively in null space, but since my return I find care bearing a bit more to my liking for now.

I will undertake to provide an explanation of any action that I may take. However, when I make a mistake, please file a petition since that is a sure way to get my attention.

Again, I apologize for my part in the recent problems.

Fly safe.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#217 - 2012-06-27 18:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Crunchie Attuxors
ISD Tyrozan wrote:
The time has come to "face the music". I look back at some of my actions and find that I wish I could retract them. All I can do is to issue a heart-felt apology for any errors that I have made and make a solemn promise to try to do better.

A bit of information about myself. I am one of the older players of EVE and have been away for a period due to a massive heart attack. I originally started with a corporation that played extensively in null space, but since my return I find care bearing a bit more to my liking for now.

I will undertake to provide an explanation of any action that I may take. However, when I make a mistake, please file a petition since that is a sure way to get my attention.

Again, I apologize for my part in the recent problems.

Fly safe.



Thank you! (although you were not the worse offender Straight others should follow your great example!)
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MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#218 - 2012-06-27 18:26:54 UTC
ISD Eshtir wrote:
My name is Eshtir and as you said correctly, i am the Vice Admiral of the CCL team and i am responsible for the CCL volunteers Shocked (how can you not know this Sad )

I am old and my memory isn't what it used to be. I'll go out on a limb and suggest the same holds true for Crunchie. Big smile

ISD Eshtir wrote:
I am sorry to mention it, but this is turning into a witch hunt and that is not what i wish for my volunteers. People ask for apologies, yet carry out the witty remarks about said ISD in other threads, their forum signatures and in posts.

I think the sniping and biting comments (*) are a reflection of the lack of respect that those players have for those ISD volunteers. If you want those to cease then you'll need to address the lack of respect. (Note: I'm not meaning to imply that you must, or even should, concern yourself with the sniping, only trying to highlight the reasonable interpretation.)

ISD Eshtir wrote:
Will the training effort be doubled and be way more indepth? Yes!

Since this thread is about the future of the CCL, and since you're talking about changes to the training of ISD volunteers, would it be appropriate for you to detail how they were originally trained and how you are changing the training to better prepare them? Perhaps the community has some insights into the training.

ISD Eshtir wrote:
Will you believe my words? Probably not, but i will let my actions speak for me. Though that will take some time.

You're sounding a little defensive. If my posts have you feeling that way, I apologize. I was not directly impacted by the incidents and only have a clinical interest in discussing how to move forward from them.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Were either of you grievously wronged by their actions? They have nothing to apologize for, definitely not because a couple of players demand it.

In my experience, an apology is appropriate when a mistake has been committed, regardless of the impact of that mistake. YMMV.

MDD
(*) As English is perhaps not your first language, allow me to offer a more precise description than "witty". Witty implies humor with an absence of malice. Those remarks in the other threads you mention seem to have some malice behind them, so "biting comment" or "sniping" is a better description.
Pipa Porto
#219 - 2012-06-27 18:28:50 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:

Other thrid party sites do not have a legal obligation to keep their forums teen rated and suitable for 13 year olds. We do. This means that wht other forums can allow we are not able to permit.


1) Nobody has a problem with you snipping words that get around the curse filter. The stuff that's been snipped and edited has not had anything to do with maintaining the Teen rating.

2) So far that I know, no rating system rates the online content of games (at least the ESRB doesn't). They rate what the game provides and say something like "Online Experience may Vary"

3) If it took a forum insurrection for you to notice the problem (that has been going on for much longer than 24hrs), why should we expect the future of the ISD CCL team to be any different? Your lead ISD STAR guy came in with this groaner:
ISD Athechu wrote:
We are players of the same game as you and we enjoy it like you. The difference is that we have decided to contribute our time to the community that makes EVE so great.


That attitude is exactly why volunteer moderators will not work in a forum like this. With volunteer mods (especially with that attitude), you're either going to suffer the fate of the Blizzard forums or you're going to have a cycle of
Insurrection -> Reigning the ISDs in -> Letting them loose -> Insurrection

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#220 - 2012-06-27 18:32:00 UTC
ISD Tyrozan wrote:
I look back at some of my actions and find that I wish I could retract them.


Bertrand Russell wrote:
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision.


Consequently, that you feel "doubt and uncertainty" about your prior acts speaks well of you.

In more vernacular: thanks for manning-up.

MDD