EVE General Discussion

Someone asked previously in the thread about bans and warnings.

Having visited several forums, as a user and now having moderator rights (although I rarely use them, because I prefer banning people or deleting them from the database) I know that some forum software comes with a point system that will allow mods to keep track of your offenses (infractions) as a user, and some doesn't.

Despite popular belief though, its almost certain that all offenses are kept in a central location to monitor your forum abuse. You just can't see that forum.

Some point systems fade over time, allowing you to become involved members of the community and some are aware of these border values and has a tendency to abuse them, thus allowing them to remain in the community while being able to grossly overstep the boundries of the community on occasion, making a mockery of the system but more importantly, its users.

For those, there is an app that discourages forum use, making it a right pain to just navigate and post the forums as they will fail, load seemingly random pages, disconnect and more.

The best system use a mix of both, so the mods can forward only severe cases to community admins (in this case ISD can escalate to CCP community reps) in case of bans. That way, mods can spend time modding, and CCP reps can spend time on more important stuff, like working with fansites to get more interviews.

It would seem that some CCP devs do not have access to moderate the forums though, which propably benefits the users more than the developers

Personally, it pleases me that the ISD has been able to step in and help, as it allows us to get more content pushed out to the public through our fansite.

To CCP, ISD and CCL,

While I don't know the actual specifics leading to the creation of this thread, I wholeheartedly commend, applaud and support you all 100% in what you're trying to achieve. It has been long overdue. You're doing a very tough job that is rarely ever given the proper appreciation that it deserves. Just remember that when gangrene infects a limb, you have to amputate it in order to save the body. Obviously it will be painful to the patient but it's still a necessary life saving action.

The gangrene I'm referring to is the offensive disrespectful anti social attitude that's been cultivated in these forums over the past few years. Sarcastic personal attacks being posted by individuals is all part of a meta-game event, enforced by gang-bang attacks with multiple alts designed to overwhelm and silence opposing viewpoints or to simply derive enjoyment by humiliating and insulting others. Clearly intended to disrupt and enrage others as evidenced by some of the posted replies in this very thread.

I say this to you now, stay the course and do not be swayed by a few discontented opinions. If their posted reply was in compliance with the Forum Rules, then it wouldn't have needed moderation. This is your house and it's high time it was cleaned up. If I was just a little bit more cool-headed, I would have applied for CCL myself and named my character Davey Jones, probably because I'd be killing replies and sending threads to 'The Locker' while yelling 'Yarrr Matey'.

Those that say Eve is a harsh cruel game and the forums should reflect that are actually looking for an excuse to justify their own actions. These Forums used to be a helpful venue to share and gain information as well as converse with Dev's. Now it's just a place where people are constantly being attacked by rude, inconsiderate individuals hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, always looking to demean and berate others with sarcastic remarks.

So once again I say this to you, stay the course and do not be swayed by discontented opinions. The CCL has been doing an excellent job lately and they need to continue doing it.

DMC

Except, you know, that is not the case.

For someone claiming, implicitly, to have a high horse, you are actually taking this opportunity to engage in the same behavior.

If you would have been active in the last few days, you would have seen what we are talking about. The issue was not that there were rule violations. The issue was that rules were being interpreted and enforced in manners that rather than promote better flow in the forums, they made matters worse.

Quite frankly, your post is also has an "offensive disrespectful anti social attitude" in so far as is lumps together those with legitimate concerns with the few bad apples and confuses the legitimate issues of moderation being needed and the ISD being a good way to do that, with the issue of ISD incompetence and lack of planning on the part of CCP.

And furthermore, it uses tones that are not far from what you denounce.

Bottom line: you are not practicing what you preach and your post is not helpful and is in fact ignorant of the facts at hand.

This does not in any way detract from his overall message which I thought was well written, on topic and I find it pretty difficult to disagree with any of it.

Of course, you can continue to berate a couple of green recruits who made an error, which we have apologized for. These guys will retain our support and we will help them improve.

Not sure if you can ever forgive and forget but mistakes happen.

Give us another way to contact ISDs other than the snailmail petitions that nobody wants to use due to the frankly crap response time. Lack of communication = lack of understanding = lack of empathy.

The entire purpose of the thread is to discuss the future of the Community team and ISD on the forums and, as a result, his post is entirely on topic.

I have no 'personal affinity' with him or any other poster. My role needs to be one of objectivity, however, the fact that I will agree with someones point of view means this reflects our own vision for the future of the forums.

if the choice of the word 'berate' offends you then i am truly sorry. What I have been witnessing is a section of our playerbase who would much rather see the ISD fail, get thrown out rather than seeing if there is a way they could assist them.

My bad.

I agree with your assessment that people who think forum moderation can be improved are likely to be the ones that apply but then I don't think that's a band thing since we sort of agree, and that being one of the reasons for starting the CCL...other major reasons being more boots on the ground to gather good feedback, and to interact in a pro-active manner etc.

However, I disagree with the argument that we would all be better off if they moderated under their in-game names. While that can work very well in a community that's purely based around a forum and all social repercussions are contained on that forum, it wouldn't work the same in a community where the forum is just a part of a persistent galaxy where their corporations, assets, relationships and livelihood can be severely affected by who's toes they step on during their daily duties.

Would they constantly have to worry about things like whether or not to lock someone's thread because he might toss them out of an alliance if they did? Or about editing this guy's thread because he runs the meanest infiltration group known to man and would probably be feasting on their corpses in a few months time if he knew their in-game identities? :)

Don't get me wrong, it would have its benefits, but more downsides in my opinion.

Just too bad this seems to be a one way street.
Just looking at several Devs behaviour towards certain players and playergroups, I personally, get more and more the feeling the same rules get applied differently in simular cases.

You forget one large part in your whole setup.

A large group can make life for someone on the forums a lot harder than a small group or solo player.

If being comfortable having a discussion would have been the goal then you shouldn't have slopped it all up in the first place.
Now by having a runt of wannabe's run around, eager to please their new master in finding anything even remotely hurtfull or hatefull you set the whole "feeling comfortable in having that discussion" situation even on a far higher platform than most people are willing to reach for.

What an excellent idea, lets force your morality on everyone else. That will show them!

In DMC's post, he admits that he is unaware of the particulars of the incidents that occurred, but then goes on to praise the work of the ISD. I think I'm not alone in my distaste for that unsupportable "fanboi-ism"; it tends to color my judgment of the rest of his words.


I won't disagree that there is a segment who are actively cheering for failure. I've not been following the incidents (I generally avoid GD), so I can't say how numerous they may be. Your difficult task is to continue to listen to us all while that segment continues to howl. You have my sympathy.

As for "seeing if there is a way they could assist them", I think CCP deserves a heaping helping of blame there. CCP explicitly states that discussion of moderation is verboten, and aggressively enforces that rule. So no chance for forum-based feedback.

CCP re-directs moderation discussions to petitions which:
1. are not direct-able to the individual CCP or ISD character
2. not conducive to discussions involving more than 2 parties
3. are widely perceived as ineffective and untimely

So, if CCP really wants our help, then CCP needs to provide communication channels that are able to accomplish it.

MDD