Intergalactic Summit

I will say this again: I do not torture or abuse my slaves. They are clothed, housed, educated, and put to work, and at all times treated with dignity. Particularly those of a foreign nation that is closely allied with my own -- a diplomatic incident is hardly a 'noble' avenue to pursue in the name of 'justice'.



Were we to come to your space, we would be expected to abide by the laws and customs therein. What you trumpet as 'bullying', we consider a matter of law. As for those that don't show the proper reverence to the Amarrian faith -- we ask that our political and religious leader be treated with the respect you show to your own.



I am not privy to the details of the situation, save this: a citizen was caught selling blasphemous material. His client list was confiscated, and due measures were taken under the power of the Amarrian legal system.



And what irritates me is people that read threads like this, see what they want to see and condemn the writer for the part they didn't want to admit as valid and accurate.



Our move, indeed. The holoreel in question has been recalled, the blasphemers have been apprehended, and the appropriate punishment has been assigned. What you do in your own empire, in your own ship, or in your own home is your business. When it crosses the border into our space, however, it becomes our business.

Kindly do not presume to lecture us on the application of law within our own borders.

If you were to come to Gallente space you would find our laws and customs to be based in reason and rationality. You would find things that are harmful like drugs and boosters to be outlawed or restricted, not because our god tells us they are sinful but because we know them to be harmful. You would find us highly tolerant of what you chose to do in the privacy of your own quarters and of who you chose to keep company with.
In the event you did break the law you would find our courts to be just and fair, you would be assigned legal representation or invited to hire your own. You would be given daily communication with your family and friends and allowed to organise your legal defence.
In the event you were convicted of a serious crime or felony you would find that Gallente courts do NOT practice capital punishment. While incarcerated you would be given counselling and invited to learn a trade, you would have weekly communication with family and friends and given food and shelter. In the event you were a foreigner you might even be extradited back to your homeland rather than face punishment in a foreign land and culture.

Can you say the same about your "holy" laws?




After hearing that the execution was filmed and broadcast live I tried to see if I could find a viewing. I did not, however I did find other such executions and quite frankly I am beyond enraged.
Death by hanging is a crewel and utterly barbaric punishment. No where else but the Amarr empire (and her sub-states) was I able to find an equally torturous method of execution, still practised by a judicial system.

Caldari sometimes practice capital punishment, however typical execution method for Caldari is either lethal injection - an event which the family and friends of the executed are allowed to attend - or firing squad (typically reserved for military or boarder world executions).
Lethal injection is done quite painlessly and respectfully, with a great deal of pains made to ensure the executed's dignity is preserved. Firing squad is less respectful but their is a degree of efficiency to it and the executed is still treated with a great deal of respect.

The Matari who your people enslaved as barbaric, lesser men have not practised capital punishment for a great many years. The harshest penalty is apparently exile, where the guilty party is given 3 days food and water and then expelled from the society they have wronged.



Hangings on the other hand are just about the most barbaric punishment I have found still practised in "civilised" country. The guilty is taken into a public square, often stripped of most of their clothing, brought before a leering crowed and read their "sins".
The rope is then placed around their neck and tightened. At this stage if they are lucky, a trap door is opened bellow their feet and gravity uses the rope to snap their neck, usually killing them. More often though the rope is places incorrectly and the "guilty" is left dangling in-front of the crowed to die a slow humiliating death by suffocation. Some executions have taken days to conclude, with the "guilty" dying from heat-stroke rather than suffocation.



For you now to try and tell me that your laws and punishments are moral and just is absolutely ridiculous. I am ashamed of your culture for you, since apparently you think this kind of punishment is both reasonable and just. What I or you do within our own boarders is indeed our own business, but do keep in mind that when you publicly and universally broadcast your so called "justice" to the rest of the universe that you have entered into a public arena and are thusly open to criticism.

In future if you do not wish to receive such criticism I suggest you keep it "in the family" as the saying goes.

"Reason" and "rationality" are subjective terms. You will find that the insane believe themselves to be "reasonable" and "rational" as well. Your laws are based on the Gallentean view of life and the cluster and what is considered "reasonable" to your mindset and principles. This is not necessarily "bad" but it also does not make your law system universally acceptable or superior.



What, exactly, would you call the public live burning of an individual then?



So basically, instead of punishment for crimes committed, you offer provision, education and social freedom. You may consider this a "good" thing, but I consider it highly impractical and rather counter intuitive to the idea of punishment for crimes. It's hardly a prison at all, more like a hospital for criminal therapy.



Some would argue that death is far more merciful than exile. I cannot speak for the Matari, but exile in the eyes of a Caldari is the absolute worst fate that could befall you, separated from your family and identity, denied purpose and provision, seemingly beyond any chance of restoration, distanced from everything you've ever known and loved and left to suffer and die in shame.

... which has been proven time and time again to work far better at reintegrating said criminals into society. No other method can produce such low rates of relapse. But maybe the Caldari prefer killing any and every criminal instead which nullifies the risk of them relapsing (unless, of course, you are dealing with capsuleers)?

How would I do so without breaking character?

[OOC]: "What, exactly, would you call the public live burning of an individual then?"
>_< Fuuuuuuu....
Note to self: read ALL the chronicles at some point in the near future. [/OOC]





Apologies if my tone suggested otherwise, I never meant to say or insinuate that my homelands legal system is the greatest or the best, merely the most humane. Different cultures have different values and laws and legislation reflect that. As much as I might want to I know I cannot claim the Gallente system to be best, nor will I insist everyone else follow our model.

What I can do is vocalise my objections to inhumane punishment methods such as public death by hanging.


As for the incident you mentioned; I would call it a gross miscarriage of justice, a failing of the system and proof that the Gallente are not perfect. I fully acknowledge the history of my people and the crimes we've committed as well as our failing and mis-steps.

Incidents like this are fortuently not the norm within federation boarders. Amarrian public hangings on the other hand are.



Basicaly? Yes, it is.
I understand that Caldari have a strong sense of justice and that part of that is retribution for ones crimes. I appreciate how odd it must seem to an outsider to "reward" criminals with a clean bed and enrolment with a trade school.

I could go off on a tangent about Gallente morals but I think a Caldari gentleman like yourself would respond better appreciate numbers.

Within the federation, instances of repeat offences are lower than any other empire. There are fewer cases of violent crimes and we have fewer people in our prisons than other empires.
Fewer repeat offenders, less violent crimes and fewer people incarcerated. What's different? We just believe in teaching bad people to be better people.




I would actualy agree. Exile would be a horrible punishment and on many boarder worlds it is a death sentence to be sent away into the badlands. In these cases perhaps a firing squad would be preferable. As you pointed out earlier though, different cultures. different values.

At the end of the day, exile is still more humane than a public hanging.

Kel hound,

I can respect that you maintain a level-head and clear discussion even through opposing ideals.

Given your understanding of different cultures and different values, perhaps it would be prudent to suggest that the Amarrian values you decry as inhumane are, to them, sacred? While Gallente culture focuses on freedom, liberty and social reintegration; Amarrian society focuses on purity, righteousness and the sanctity of holiness.

Do not misunderstand me in this, I am not attempting to defend the Amarr or their legal system (it is not my place to do so), I am merely pointing out the fundamental differences between your society and theirs, which are the foundations for the major differences of viewpoint and mindset between you and them.

EDIT:

Thessalonia,

No, I cannot see how it is more humane to rewrite the mind of another. Execution is the punishment for one's choices and crimes, mental restructuring is the removal of those choices. Conformity and compliance may be desirable and far more efficient than anarchy and chaotic individualism, but to force this through invasive mental restructuring is a crime in and of itself.

I know you and I will disagree on this so dragging it into a lengthy debate will be fruitless.

Malcolm, you argue that using a maul to correct a problem is more humane than using a scalpel. In either case, you are removing someone's so-called "free will" but in one case they go on living, and in the other you have killed them.

And you have externally changed one person into a lump of decaying meat. You have to understand that your concept of 'Justice' is entirely self created. The only morality and ethics in the universe are that which we create and enforce ourselves, and this is why only groups that realize this can ever be rationally morally and ethically correct. To assume anything else requires, by necessity, the view that the universe is a fair place, and I would think that the Caldari of all groups would understand that this is not the case.

If there is evil in there, you are right, I can't see it, because I don't particularly see what is evil in it.

You seem to believe that morality is a choice. That, unless one can choose to do evil, good is without meaning. This is untrue. Good always has a meaning, and that is that proper moral behavior is beneificient to the community.

What you consider choice, IE the ability to do evil, is an error in thinking. It is an abberation.

In essence, it is a programming error.

I know you don't like to think of human beings as biological computers, but unfortunatly this is a reality you are going to have to live with, because it is true. We are wonderous things, don't get me wrong.

So, if the ability to choose to do evil is a programming error, then any good programmer will tell you that it is right and correct to fix that error, and remove the ability of the program to, say, delete other files, or purposely destroy the hardware on which it runs, or simply crash and do nothing but take up space.

All of the empires know, at least crudely, how to fix these errors. Prison is a clumsy attempt, working either to rehabilitate the errant program or to at least minimize its ability to do damage. Execution is another method, which can equate to simply deleting the wayward bit of code.

Instead of trying these clumsy methods, we simply go in and rewrite the code so that it works as intended.