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The future of Community and CCL

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Jason Auralis
The Marshall Group
#81 - 2012-06-26 19:55:18 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
I am very disappointed with CCP.

For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.

It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.


Best regards,
Vaju


I think i have more reason than anyone to question CCP's vision of the sandbox right now. However, let it play out a bit before judging them. I am practicing what I preach. It's the end result we all want and sometimes the process is messy.

Thanks for being pretty cool about it. New processes are always shaky to begin with and like we said, we're still learning.


Im willing to accept this apologie on the condition we can use "IBTS" without fear of being banned.

"Could I request that ISD please lock my shirt into my trousers?" - Lilliana Stelles 2012.06.25 Never forget.
Remigius Varagine
Hibernating
#82 - 2012-06-26 19:55:25 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:


You are part of Goonswarm's target audience.

:get out:

Now I am confused.

What exactly are you trying to tell me?
That only Goonswarm should be alowed to post, but not it's target audience? I don't think you mean that, but what do you mean?

I am merely asking for clarification.

Also, that was not a useful answer for my previous post. Could you please tell me what I read wrong?
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2012-06-26 19:56:52 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
I am very disappointed with CCP.

For me the EvE Online forums are an extension of the EvE Online sandbox, this type of "oppressive moderation" ruins everything.

It's butchering the EvE Online experience, it goes again it's own culture, it doesn't feel like EvE forums at all. This make me wonder about the sandbox, what's the next part that goes under the knife.


Best regards,
Vaju


I think i have more reason than anyone to question CCP's vision of the sandbox right now. However, let it play out a bit before judging them. I am practicing what I preach. It's the end result we all want and sometimes the process is messy.

Thanks for being pretty cool about it. New processes are always shaky to begin with and like we said, we're still learning.


Now, if you could just unlock the 4x4 thread once the blog hits that would be spiffy :)

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Pipa Porto
#84 - 2012-06-26 19:58:38 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Holy One wrote:
You don't need to tell someone they are offended or arbitrarily isolate them from the risk of being 'upset' by someone else on a forum. Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought control (ISD) deciding for us.

To attempt to conceal this *epic* paradigm shift in the cuddly in-offensive blanket of 'just trying to make it friendlier' is insulting to anyone's intelligence Herr Navigator.

Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism!


I am pretty sure we are polemically split on what we feel is required in terms of censorship. If there is not a rule set in place on a forum then why should people not post ****, trojans, malware and other stuff. Why should people not be outright hostile, menacing and threatening? Why should a productive discussion ever happen in that type of atmosphere? Perhaps you feel those should not be censored and people should survive on their ability to be savvy or not, as the case may be.

Believe me when I say, and you can quote me on this, players who do not want to be part of fair and reasonable discussions on these forums will soon find they do not belong on this discussion area at all. that is not designed to be a threat or convey a sense of malice but is intended to show our resolve to create a much more amiable atmosphere for players and developers in general.


The PL forums are pretty dang hostile and PL does alright. Same with Kugu.

The problem is that fair and reasonable discussions often have loud little outbreaks that are perfectly normal and can be reigned in by a quick, "Hey guize, let's calm this thing down before I have to lock it" from someone we have reason to respect.

At this point, it's going to take a long, long time for the ISD team to even hit the baseline. Maybe it's the fault of one rogue member, but as CCP knows, one member can do a lot of damage when it comes to reputation. If the CCL team is to be recovered, it needs to spend a long time on the forums learning how to calm threads down with words.

(And editing peoples posts [besides normal word filter stuff] is probably the worst thing you can do ever. Better off wiping the post out and sending a reason why.)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#85 - 2012-06-26 20:00:36 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
...
We're really sorry about all this. Like we said, we're still learning and didn't mean to provoke such a large back lash. We're more than willing to listen to you and get more involved in the community so we don't just seem to come out of nowhere and get all Judge Dredd on everyone.

+1 for reference to a terribly hilarious movie.

Anyway, we understand that you guys are not professionals... that is part of the problem. Learning takes time, so we do need some patience. But we also need some clue of why things were done (IMO being encouraged to discuss the moderation taken in private would be nice... as long as individuals remained civil). The one liners lead to a lot of confusion, especially when things seem to be overly moderated.

Keep learning, and maybe with CCP, the ISDs, and those of us in the community who want it to work out, we might be able to develop a system that works for everyone. Well, everyone that is reasonable.Big smile
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-06-26 20:20:36 UTC
Remigius Varagine wrote:

Now I am confused.

What exactly are you trying to tell me?
That only Goonswarm should be alowed to post, but not it's target audience? I don't think you mean that, but what do you mean?

I am merely asking for clarification.

Also, that was not a useful answer for my previous post. Could you please tell me what I read wrong?


According to your corp, you've gone full ******. Never go full ******.
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#87 - 2012-06-26 20:29:20 UTC
It saddens me that CCP created the mess in the first place by letting the overall posting abuse get out of hand and now some volunteers are being used as scapegoats and peons to clean up the mess.

Howmany times have I seen posts containing the words, Jewgold, Spergs etc and all was fine.

Slowly the malignant abcess, they allowed to fester over the years, became so darn bloated that they themselves finally started to realise that the socalled freedom they allowed is and will be subjected to various degrees of abuse, insults, hatred and verbal vomitting.
Growing up doesn't mean you can only see your own freedom but also how to not limit other people's freedoms by overrunning them with yours.

So CCL will become a reality, even though we can already predict the outcome over time.
Pipa Porto
#88 - 2012-06-26 20:33:22 UTC
Killer Gandry wrote:
It saddens me that CCP created the mess in the first place by letting the overall posting abuse get out of hand and now some volunteers are being used as scapegoats and peons to clean up the mess.

Howmany times have I seen posts containing the words, Jewgold, Spergs etc and all was fine.


Those posts aren't what this was about.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Remigius Varagine
Hibernating
#89 - 2012-06-26 20:34:02 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Remigius Varagine wrote:

Now I am confused.

What exactly are you trying to tell me?
That only Goonswarm should be alowed to post, but not it's target audience? I don't think you mean that, but what do you mean?

I am merely asking for clarification.

Also, that was not a useful answer for my previous post. Could you please tell me what I read wrong?


According to your corp, you've gone full ******. Never go full ******.

I am glad you noticed that :)
But I still would be happy if you could answer my questions.
English is my second language, so please enlighten me where I went wrong.
Copine Callmeknau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2012-06-26 20:54:39 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Does this mean we have to put our posts calling our enemies and their shipfits stupid in CAOD now? What about if their posts are terrible outside of CAOD?

I mean, if I can kill someone because they do dumb things on a repeated basis over a period of time, I think it is reasonable to say "Hey, you are dumb, perhaps you should have fit a second civilian autocannon on your ratting carrier, and that way you will be less dumb."

Or will I forever have to go to that bastion of true posting outside of the EveO forums, that wretched hive of scum and villainy which cannot be named but yet everyone knows the name of already, if I wish to call someone dumb?


Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'? As someone who frequents the forums you must surely be aware that giving out an insult generally results in getting an insult back thus setting up a cycle of deterioration in the thread. Do you feel that good threads being derailed in this manner benefits the community in general? Do you find that threads of these nature go on to become threads for the betterment of the community?

Have you ever thought of instead of insulting the player in question that you might wish to help him/her instead?

Now I realize this is not going to be a heavenly forum where people constantly Hi 5 and hug each other but surely starting posts with calling people dumb is the very definition of non-productive.

I ask this because I am genuinely curious.

Yep, that's exactly why I leave all my insults until right at the end of the post.

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#91 - 2012-06-26 21:02:49 UTC
Now that we have someone from CCP reading this thread here is the petition I sent in just before the justifiable anger and updated during the silliness.

Quote:
Hi guys,

I gotta say this recruitment drive is hauling a poor crop indeed. Check out this one:

(link removed by me)

No empathy - check.
No effort at all to help - check.
Immediately close the user's thread without any chance for the community to help - check.
Link the customer to an already closed thread - check.

Forums are to communicate and to lessen the burden of support - basically the cost of it. If you empower a group of drones who fail to understand that they at some level need to represent your company as well as mindlessly apply "rules" then you are doing yourself a great disservice.

Why you even let them say "rules" is beyond me. Forum moderation is 100% subjective and dependent on infinite combinations of context. Make your people say "guidelines". Semantically the same thing, provides infinite wriggle room and is not as confrontational to the customer.

Who is educating your moderators?

Moderators should be polite, but firm. Most importantly they should give the customer a feeling they appreciate their position, even if they privately could not care less.

I have no idea where you are getting these people, but Gods you are creating a miserable time for yourself down the tracke
And during the madness...
Quote:
And now as you can see by looking at the forum he has lost all control and all respect. 

Exactly what you don't want from someone representing you. 

A simple rule with this large forum game, there are always more of them with less to lose than you. You need to have moderators who can win the mob to win the day. 

Time is money. A settled forum is a cheap forum. 

Without finesse unimaginative volunteer moderators just create a mess that paid employees need to clean up.
And here we are just as I predicted.

I have views on forum moderation and in particular games forums built up over many years and to me CCP is demonstrating a text book case of how you can repeatedly fumble the ball in this area.
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#92 - 2012-06-26 21:33:04 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


Those posts aren't what this was about.


Ah, so you're a firm believer that all headaches need an asperine, no need to look at the whole picture.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#93 - 2012-06-26 21:34:28 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
The problem with stupid people is that they don't realize they're stupid.Ugh

"The" problem? I don't think I agree with that. I'll agree that it is one of the problems, but I'm certain we can all agree that failing to recognize their own condition is a second place prize behind having the condition itself. (Sorry for the stilted language; I'm trying to avoid repeating the insult while still agreeing with the sentiment.)

I'm uncertain if this is an appropriate place to ask this (if not, please be gentle with your rebukes), but can someone (CCP or ISD) please explain the CCL volunteer interviewing & vetting process? I would have imagined that prior moderation experience (with *evidence*) be required. If so, then is someone looking into how that interview/vetting failed to screen out the apparent non-performing volunteer(s)?

MDD
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2012-06-26 21:48:30 UTC
I appreciate the work the CCL is trying to accomplish with the help of CCP.

I personally avoid the more popular areas of the forums because of the trolling and the negative style posting. I do agree it is a sand box, but it is a multplayer sandbox and we must respect our neighbors and not to poop all over it. There are Places like Failheap Challenge and anothers where people can be as ugly as they like.

The only recourse I have when dealing with such vile posting on the eve forums, is to go to portions where the Trolls and other ugly poster frequent less. Now with CCL and CCP fighting back the tide of vile filth I can start coming back to the regular forms.

Thank You CCL and CCP.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2012-06-26 21:57:44 UTC
Holy One wrote:
Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism!


First they came for the shitposters,
and I did not speak out because I was not a shitposter.

Then they came for the immature morons,
and I did not speak out because...


Nah, f*ck it, I'm fine with suppressing shitposters and immature morons..
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-06-26 22:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Remigius Varagine wrote:
So, you want to post in a way that makes other people stop playing EVE?
On the forum that is owned by CCP (who wants to make money with EVE)?
And you want an official stamp of approval from CCP for that sort of action?

I am just asking if I understand correctly what I was reading in your post. So please correct me if I got anything wrong. Thanks in advance.

Stop playing EVE? No, we don't need our opponents to unsub, but undermining their confidence in their alliance to stop them from joining fleet the next time there's an ALL HANDS ON DECK RED PEN EVERYONE BE THERE op, sure.

Forum warfare is a useful weapon to have in the arsenal.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Syllviaa
Hole Exploitation Inc.
#97 - 2012-06-26 22:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Syllviaa
ISD Eshtir wrote:
We are still a long way from being perfect, but we are trying to improve. We accept feedback that is constructive.


Unfortunately some members of your group did not share your opinion, which led to the whole debacle yesterday. It's not as though this was a one off incident, it had been going on for weeks. It's a shame it took such drastic measures for you to realise there was actually a problem. Freeing the people listed below would be great too Lol

RIP Richard A. Butt
Pipa Porto
#98 - 2012-06-26 22:32:52 UTC
Killer Gandry wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Those posts aren't what this was about.


Ah, so you're a firm believer that all headaches need an asperine, no need to look at the whole picture.


You're looking at the color of the blood and missing the arterial spurting.

The ISDs were acting inappropriately towards constructive posts that were well within the historical norm of the forum when it was well moderated. The shiptosting riot came after that.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#99 - 2012-06-26 22:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
ISD Eshtir wrote:

We are still a long way from being perfect, but we are trying to improve. We accept feedback that is constructive.


I won't edit your words in my quote, but please be accurate:

"We Accept feedback now that the problem got loud."

We did try to give constructive feedback before starting Whack-a-Mole. It got locked. That annoyed us.
Oh, and feedback given in private is not feedback. It's yelling into an empty cave. CCP shows that to us every patch.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#100 - 2012-06-26 22:36:22 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
On the note of threads being locked for "going off-topic" - this is seriously poor moderation. It's one thing if the discussion has gone full circle and nothing good is coming out of it but that's not even in the same ballpark as "going off-topic." It's always the same badposters using the same sockpuppet NPC corp alts steering threads "off-topic" and getting what was previously a good discussion locked.

This actually happens all the time and is extremely annoying. I had a thread infested with npc alts, and rather than deal with them ISD simply closed the thread for being "off-topic".

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.