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Is risk free PVP good for the game?
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Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#1 - 2012-06-26 20:20:23 UTC
Currently there is a little dustup going on in Delve between the Haves and Have-nots. The problem I see, is that in a war of attrition, there can be only one winner.
Doesn't mean they are the best, simply means that CCP has created a situation where one group can control an Isk faucet that makes any PVP losses meaningless.
Not only that, but they they have let this issue go on for such a long time, that the amount of ISK in Alliances pockets makes it impossible to combat. You can have numbers, skills, ships, FC's...and still end up losing to a group filled with newer players, poorer skills, and sloppy execution, simply because they can get right back in another ship and fight again, without any personal loss of isk.

So, is this really good for the game?


IBTL, IBTT......

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#2 - 2012-06-26 20:23:53 UTC
Past a certain point, ISK loss is mostly immaterial for large alliances. War becomes more about morale, ideology, and actually beating your enemy... not just "winning the ISK war" in skirmishes.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Pipa Porto
#3 - 2012-06-26 20:25:02 UTC
Of course not. CCP has needed to fix tech since... before the r64 nerf/Tech buff hit TQ. See Akita T's post on the subject.

OTEC just happened along to drive the point home, and if the member of the CSM most active in the fight to fix tech were still there, there would be some chance that it would get fixed.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#4 - 2012-06-26 20:25:06 UTC
There is always a risk of someone invading your alliance for several years, and then one day, BAM, everything is gone.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#5 - 2012-06-26 20:25:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
So you're whining that you've lost a war before it starts, eh?

I wonder if a different outlook might help you. Here's a hint, though, the dominant groups in EvE got there without all the tech moons in their pockets (indeed, that was the end reward for their efforts) so I'm really not sure you have a point.

(all the leading elements of 0.0 power started life as underdogs against larger much richer alliances)

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#6 - 2012-06-26 20:27:22 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Of course not. CCP has needed to fix tech since... before the r64 nerf/Tech buff hit TQ. See Akita T's post on the subject.

OTEC just happened along to drive the point home, and if the member of the CSM most active in the fight to fix tech were still there, there would be some chance that it would get fixed.

Tech needs to be nerfed, but for reasons of balancing the economy rather than for reason of nerfing the CFC war machine.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Christopher AET
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-06-26 20:29:51 UTC
Initially tech provided a point of conflict. However that was not anticipating the politically stable megablob that is the CFC. With that the point of conflict becomes a self reinforcing barrier to assault. So CCP have stated they are looking at tech. However I do wish it would be sooner rather than later.

I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.
stoicfaux
#8 - 2012-06-26 20:30:10 UTC
Put a timer on pod deaths. The more you die, the longer the delay before you can undock. Alliances keep their wealth, but the main resource, people, becomes limited to prevent excessive zerging.



Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Pipa Porto
#9 - 2012-06-26 20:31:32 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Of course not. CCP has needed to fix tech since... before the r64 nerf/Tech buff hit TQ. See Akita T's post on the subject.

OTEC just happened along to drive the point home, and if the member of the CSM most active in the fight to fix tech were still there, there would be some chance that it would get fixed.

Tech needs to be nerfed, but for reasons of balancing the economy rather than for reason of nerfing the CFC war machine.


Ayup. That's what I said. The CFC didn't have any Tech when the r64 nerf happened.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#10 - 2012-06-26 20:31:49 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Put a timer on pod deaths. The more you die, the longer the delay before you can undock. Alliances keep their wealth, but the main resource, people, becomes limited to prevent excessive zerging.

Please consider the others you'd be nerfing in the process Sad

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Pipa Porto
#11 - 2012-06-26 20:32:21 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Put a timer on pod deaths. The more you die, the longer the delay before you can undock. Alliances keep their wealth, but the main resource, people, becomes limited to prevent excessive zerging.



So 2 hours with a thrasher will let me game mechanically camp someone into station forever? Sweet.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-06-26 20:44:03 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Currently there is a little dustup going on in Delve between the Haves and Have-nots. The problem I see, is that in a war of attrition, there can be only one winner.
Doesn't mean they are the best, simply means that CCP has created a situation where one group can control an Isk faucet that makes any PVP losses meaningless.
Not only that, but they they have let this issue go on for such a long time, that the amount of ISK in Alliances pockets makes it impossible to combat. You can have numbers, skills, ships, FC's...and still end up losing to a group filled with newer players, poorer skills, and sloppy execution, simply because they can get right back in another ship and fight again, without any personal loss of isk.

So, is this really good for the game?


IBTL, IBTT......


Tech is not infinite. One moon only produce that much every month, and it only sells for that much. Destroy enough ships and the technetium wont be enough to keep up.

You also raise the question of how "a group filled with newer players, poorer skills, and sloppy execution" may have beaten one with "numbers, skills, ships, FC's" at getting control of tech.

And really, no, being able to get a structure that makes individual losses a non-issue is rather kickass. It makes people want to play the game and blow **** up instead of only taking fights when they're sure they wont risk to lose their 300m battleship.
Ravan Hekki
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-06-26 20:46:36 UTC
That be the breaks dude. Lets be honet though that fight started with TASHA, 99%, and TEST rolling Delve and it was a forgone conclusion there. Those three alliances had more will to take the space than those who held it had to keep it. Dont moan in a forum, get in space and fight.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#14 - 2012-06-26 21:01:28 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:

Not only that, but they they have let this issue go on for such a long time, that the amount of ISK in Alliances pockets makes it impossible to combat. You can have numbers, skills, ships, FC's...and still end up losing to a group filled with newer players, poorer skills, and sloppy execution, simply because they can get right back in another ship and fight again, without any personal loss of isk.


I promise you, numbers, skills, ships and FCs are all in favor of the CFC anyway.

Seriously, do the delvies think they have FCs on par with Vee or Shadoo?
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#15 - 2012-06-26 21:02:10 UTC
Ravan Hekki wrote:
That be the breaks dude. Lets be honet though that fight started with TASHA, 99%, and TEST rolling Delve and it was a forgone conclusion there. Those three alliances had more will to take the space than those who held it had to keep it. Dont moan in a forum, get in space and fight.


TEST had no intention to take space.

It seriously just happened.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-06-26 21:35:03 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Ravan Hekki wrote:
That be the breaks dude. Lets be honet though that fight started with TASHA, 99%, and TEST rolling Delve and it was a forgone conclusion there. Those three alliances had more will to take the space than those who held it had to keep it. Dont moan in a forum, get in space and fight.


TEST had no intention to take space.

It seriously just happened.

you got played Twisted

.
Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
#17 - 2012-06-26 22:13:53 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Ravan Hekki wrote:
That be the breaks dude. Lets be honet though that fight started with TASHA, 99%, and TEST rolling Delve and it was a forgone conclusion there. Those three alliances had more will to take the space than those who held it had to keep it. Dont moan in a forum, get in space and fight.


TEST had no intention to take space.

It seriously just happened.

Losing sov is the price for bad posting instead undocking.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#18 - 2012-06-27 11:12:43 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Ravan Hekki wrote:
That be the breaks dude. Lets be honet though that fight started with TASHA, 99%, and TEST rolling Delve and it was a forgone conclusion there. Those three alliances had more will to take the space than those who held it had to keep it. Dont moan in a forum, get in space and fight.


TEST had no intention to take space.

It seriously just happened.


I can confirm that. No troll, but 99% actually started the sov war in delve. We have been wanting a station of our own for months, rather then being gypsies camped on tests lawn, so we decided to SBU a efw systems. Ground down ZXB on our own with 15 tier 3's and SB's. Nulli thought it would be fun to come stomp our little endevour, so TEST & PL being the awesome big brothers that they are came to push the bully back.

For near on a month our 4 alliances (99, TASHA, PL, TEST) made a push into delve with Nulli slowly escalating more friends into the battle. When Raiden announced they were coming down, that finally annoyed the CFC enough that they made the decision to come down to help us.

Also, as for the OP reffering to us as the haves, are not raiden a major Tech holding empire as well? Don't they have arguably the largest ACTIVE super fleet in game at the moment? Don't you think that the SoCo can pull AT LEAST as many numbers as the BadgerFuck Coalition?

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
Tobias Durandal
Primal Instinct Inc.
The Initiative.
#19 - 2012-06-27 11:43:15 UTC
It's not only good, it's great.


This is where certain of aspects of warfare that most people neglect come into play.

Ideals.


You want to beat a supermassive powerhouse, and you haven't got the economy or numbers to back it up? Formulate a vision that people can rally behind and those become non-problems. If the rhetoric is strong enough, your forces become overwhelming eventually.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-06-27 11:50:25 UTC
op is mad that nulli's going to get steamrolled out of delve ((

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
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