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Reviving Solo Pvp - An alternative to probing

Author
Pboyt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-06-26 16:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Pboyt
Hey guys, I recently returned to Eve after many years away. When I came back I realised that many things had changed... and that many things hadn't.

One thing that I was disappointed to see relatively unchanged was the need for probing alts. This is when there is a ship that you want to track down that isnt docked in a station. Perhaps the ship has already engaged you once and now either yourself or the target had to run from the fight. You now want to find the guy and finish the fight.

I suggest an interesting high-slot module:

Ship Tracker

- This module is fired at a locked target. (range being debated)
- It is classed as an act of aggression (unlike cargo scanners).
- It has a succession rate (doesn't always work first time)
- Once successful, allows the target ship to be tracked for 15 minutes within that system. Being 'tracked' means that the ship that fired the tracking device can warp to the target ship at ANY time within these 15 minutes.
- If the ship leaves the system it can be located using the star-system view

This doesnt completely make a ship being tracked defenceless.. as long as it keeps warping around between safes then it doesnt have to worry about being found.... but if he stops for a couple of minutes, he may well find a guy landing on him from the group he just fought.

Before you comment please consider that the purpose of this module is to allow tracking an opponent that has engaged combat with you without the need for a dedicated prober.

What are your thoughts? I am looking for ways this may potentially be exploited.


EDIT: Below is a described scenario of how the module may help the solopvper.

So for example, say I am a lone Sleipnir travelling through systems looking for trouble. I go into a system and find 2 neutrals. I use directional scan to locate one at the belt - its a drake. I warp to the belt... I engage the drake, I have point on him. I use the ship tracker on him incase he manages to get away.

I notice after a minute into the battle that there is a scorpion on scan. I get spooked, I think its the targets ally. I microwarpdrive away and as I do so I notice the scorpion warp onto grid. I warp away to make sure I dont get gang-banged.

I stay waiting, to see if the scorpion disappears. Several minutes later hes no longer on directional scan... however I still see the Drake. I choose to warp on him using the ship tracker module.

Unfortunately I dont land ontop of him - it appears I chose to warp to him whilst he was mid-warp. So I try warping to him again. BINGO. This time I land right ontop of him ... he had been waiting at a safespot. Since I got the initial engagment with this drake at the belt, it gave me the chance to use the ship tracker on him. Subsequently I was able to run when the odds swung to his favour yet still return to him to get a kill because of the tracker module.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2012-06-26 17:22:34 UTC
If you had time to hit the guy with one of these, why didn't you just point him? What makes you think jumping on top of him will work when you failed to point him last time?
Pboyt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-06-26 17:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Pboyt
Danika Princip wrote:
If you had time to hit the guy with one of these, why didn't you just point him? What makes you think jumping on top of him will work when you failed to point him last time?


I think your questions are irrelevant to the viability of this module. In the way you have described it, your question is just as applicable to general probing. Do you think probing ships is also pointless Danika? Based on the question you asked?

Asking why a target was failed to be pointed does not mean trying to find that target and having a second chance is pointless (excuse the pun). You must remember that this module was a suggestion to provide an alternative to the NEED of probing alts/characters, which many small gangs and lone pvper's may feel is lacking in eve.

But even if I was going to try to answer your questions I could think of lots of reasons.

- You forgot to point him
- He got out of point range (overheated)
- You never got a scram on him because he was initially too far
- Perhaps this module works at a much longer range than a point. Maybe it could work at 40km+
FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#4 - 2012-06-26 18:02:49 UTC
Pboyt wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
If you had time to hit the guy with one of these, why didn't you just point him? What makes you think jumping on top of him will work when you failed to point him last time?


I think your questions are irrelevant to the viability of this module. In the way you have described it, your question is just as applicable to general probing. Do you think probing ships is also pointless Danika? Based on the question you asked?

Asking why a target was failed to be pointed does not mean trying to find that target and having a second chance is pointless (excuse the pun). You must remember that this module was a suggestion to provide an alternative to the NEED of probing alts/characters, which many small gangs and lone pvper's may feel is lacking in eve.

But even if I was going to try to answer your questions I could think of lots of reasons.

- You forgot to point him
- He got out of point range (overheated)
- You never got a scram on him because he was initially too far
- Perhaps this module works at a much longer range than a point. Maybe it could work at 40km+


Actually he / she had a very good point. You simply refused to accept it. I am guessing you ignore intellectual discussions right away?

How would this not break current mechanics? Warp bubbles, warp scramblers, interceptors, and all that good stuff already exists.
How would this not give gate camping an additional bonus?

Also, as he / she pointed out, if you could have prevented them from warping..... why not do that?


Also, your idea is rubbish from a simple perspective: you would constantly fly in circles with the target since you would lock onto them during mid warp and then constantly need to catch up. So half baked idea is not only half baked but also partially alive screaming for it to be put out of its misery.

Sincerely,

FireT
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#5 - 2012-06-26 18:18:53 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
If you had time to hit the guy with one of these, why didn't you just point him? What makes you think jumping on top of him will work when you failed to point him last time?



...because he's trying to turn the tables against ships when he hadn't the prowess to take them out and his back-up isn't online or on grid yet... sort of a bad idea because it would change the game completely... and not in a good way for low sec.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Pboyt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-06-26 18:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Pboyt
FireT wrote:

Actually he / she had a very good point. You simply refused to accept it. I am guessing you ignore intellectual discussions right away?


This is rude. Especially since I did not ignore his point, but argued it. I then continued to answer his question regardless of my own opinion. You should read my post more thoroughly next time.

FireT wrote:

How would this not break current mechanics? Warp bubbles, warp scramblers, interceptors, and all that good stuff already exists.
How would this not give gate camping an additional bonus?


It will 'break' current mechanics as much as probing already does.

How exactly do warp bubbles, warp scramblers and interceptors find ships that are in safespots?

This module would strengthen a gatecamp if a ship managed to warp off despite being locked on and fired upon [by the tracker module] by a ship at the gatecamp. Ships rarely warp away if they have already been locked and fired upon by a gatecamp member.

FireT wrote:

Also, your idea is rubbish from a simple perspective: you would constantly fly in circles with the target since you would lock onto them during mid warp and then constantly need to catch up. So half baked idea is not only half baked but also partially alive screaming for it to be put out of its misery.


Again rude. Theres no need for these types of metaphors.

Yes you will obviously not catch your enemy if you choose to warp to him whilst he is in mid warp. But I fail to see why this is a problem because as I explained before.. this allows the target a level of defence: as long as he/she doesnt stop in one place for too long then they wont get caught.
Pboyt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-06-26 18:42:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Pboyt
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
If you had time to hit the guy with one of these, why didn't you just point him? What makes you think jumping on top of him will work when you failed to point him last time?



...because he's trying to turn the tables against ships when he hadn't the prowess to take them out and his back-up isn't online or on grid yet... sort of a bad idea because it would change the game completely... and not in a good way for low sec.


This is about giving solo pvper's and small gangs a chance to find an enemy without the need for a dedicated prober.
FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#8 - 2012-06-26 18:52:19 UTC
*sigh*

Ok, please tell me as an unintelligent player how (given the same internet speed, computer processing power, and such) your idea would be useful?

You yourself said that your mechanic only requires you to keep warping away. So if I keep warping in circles you would never catch me. What if I have save spots in systems. Even less likely you will find me since warping would take longer.

And you did mention 'the other person's response to being irrelevant'. So I am no more rude than you are.

Hi pot, I am kettle. Cool
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#9 - 2012-06-26 19:02:03 UTC

This idea has many nuances that need to be thoroughly thought through:

1.) Purpose: What does this really bring to the game? The ability to warp directly to a target?? And why is this needed? Scan probes are fairly balanced, becuase they show up on overview, they take time to position, and time to scan... If the target warps away, it may take quite a while to probe them down, whereas your method sounds much quicker.... but why should you get this easy-mode hunting tool???

2.) Tagging Implementation: I can target 200+ km's in my recon... so if I tag a sniping Oracle at 200km's, I could then warp to him.... what warning does the oracle have that I've tagged him? And should tagging be an instantaneous shot (turret), or a missile (with travel time)?? What type of tagging range is fair?? If it's short (<24 kms), it's any better than a point... If it's long, it can become unbalancing...

3.) Warp Implementation.... How do you warp to your target?? I think to balance this, you need to use your ship scanner to scan for the targets location, and warp to that... the scan timer acts as a nice limit on how often you can warp, etc...

I'm not opposed to this idea, I just think it needs a good justification for implementation (at the moment it comes across as, wouldn't this be cool thing, but it lacks a goal or reason for it). I also think it needs to be more thoroughly vetted (but that's what F&I is for).
Pboyt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-06-26 19:02:04 UTC
I think what you are asking for, is a scenario.

The suggested module is most useful in these situations:

1. A gang/solo pvper with no probing alt or module
2. You have engaged your target.

So for example, say I am a lone Sleipnir travelling through systems looking for trouble. I go into a system and find 2 neutrals. I use directional scan to locate one at the belt. I warp to the belt... I engage the drake, I have point on him. I use the ship tracker.

I notice after a minute into the battle that there is a scorpion on scan. I get spooked. I microwarpdrive away and as I do so I notice the scorpion warp onto grid. I warp away.

Several minutes later when I see the drake alone on directional scanner, I choose to warp on him. It takes me to a random spot in space - dam - i must have caught him mid-warp. So I try warping to him again - bingo, in ontop of him and hes in a belt.

This time I point him and there is no scorpion on directional scanner. I maintain point and kill him. Scorpion pilot tries to return but is too late. Drake pilot should not have resumed ratting or should have stayed with his ally. Alternatively he should have switched ship.
Pboyt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-06-26 19:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Pboyt
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

If the target warps away, it may take quite a while to probe them down, whereas your method sounds much quicker.... but why should you get this easy-mode hunting tool???


Because you've already found them on grid once... AND locked AND shot your target with the tracker. That is why you deserve access to the easy-mode hunting. You cannot track a target you havent engaged yet. That is one of the fairly obvious (i thought) balancing principles of this module?

Thanks for your feedback though Gizznitt. I do like to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

2.) Tagging Implementation: I can target 200+ km's in my recon... so if I tag a sniping Oracle at 200km's, I could then warp to him.... what warning does the oracle have that I've tagged him? And should tagging be an instantaneous shot (turret), or a missile (with travel time)?? What type of tagging range is fair?? If it's short (<24 kms), it's any better than a point... If it's long, it can become unbalancing..


Tagging will not be related to the max distance that you can lock a target. I imagine, like you said it would have a missile or shot type of animation and sound notification like 'your ship has been tagged'. It would also have a limited range.

Even if a tagging range is only 10km, tagging your opponent is still really important. A normal warp disruptor prevents warp at all - but we all know ships still get away due to unforeseen circumstances - this is when the tag shows its purpose
FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#12 - 2012-06-26 19:13:23 UTC
Nice, that is one option. Now let us look at what you ignore: the worst case the scenarios.

How would this enable any surprise attacks in 0.0?
So let us assume you manage to point your target with your tracker but he escapes. Suddenly that tracker can chase the target for, as you said, at least 15 minutes.
15 minutes is a lot of time if you consider that this might effectively prevent cyno lighting. Instead suddenly there is a "hey guys, get online there might be something going on." Would they try to cyno and ditch then? Is that possible?

Hell, good alliances might simply triangulate your rough position and literally throw a warp bubble net around your rough location.



As much as I love new ideas, I recommend you consider how it could be abused. Not only "Hey I had an idea and it should be implemented." CCP is trying to balance the game after all.
Pboyt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-06-26 19:26:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Pboyt
FireT wrote:
Nice, that is one option. Now let us look at what you ignore: the worst case the scenarios.

How would this enable any surprise attacks in 0.0?
So let us assume you manage to point your target with your tracker but he escapes. Suddenly that tracker can chase the target for, as you said, at least 15 minutes.
15 minutes is a lot of time if you consider that this might effectively prevent cyno lighting. Instead suddenly there is a "hey guys, get online there might be something going on." Would they try to cyno and ditch then? Is that possible?

Hell, good alliances might simply triangulate your rough position and literally throw a warp bubble net around your rough location.


Thanks for your suggestions. The answer is - I'm not sure. I have not thought how this would affect cyno's. How do people think it should impact on cyno lighting?

FireT wrote:

As much as I love new ideas, I recommend you consider how it could be abused. Not only "Hey I had an idea and it should be implemented." CCP is trying to balance the game after all.


I agree entirely. Hence at the end of my opening post I said 'what are your thoughts?'. I never claimed to have a flawless idea, I merely have a concept and I know if there is going to be a set of intelligent people that will find the flaws in the idea, it will be the Eve Community
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#14 - 2012-06-26 19:44:12 UTC

The ONLY reason i think this idea has any potential at all, is because it CAN BE ABUSED.....

In it's current incarnation:
You have to be fairly close to use this module, such the target you use it on is typically tackled....
Rather than fit a utility high mod (Nos, Nuet, Smartbomb, probe launcher), you fit this module which is typically much less usefull.
The typical reason a tagged target would "get away" is if is fast enough to outrun your tackle.... Although it might be a lucky jam...
Essentially, if you're prey got away from you once, it will probably be able to get away from you again... meaning this rarely improve your chances of catching a tagged target....

The ONLY real potential I see: AWOXing.... You tag your spy in the enemy fleet, and punt your fleet on top of them... The enemy fleet won't see probes, and wont have any real notice that the incoming fleet will land on top of them, leading to interesting fleet combat scenarios....

FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#15 - 2012-06-26 19:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: FireT
That is the exact problem, as I already pointed out, your idea is half alive asking to die.
You yourself stated you want it as a second shot at a target. That is fine..... though you can do that already with some patience and skill. So you seem to lack the patience and skill.
Similarly your idea is completely negated if the player docks and gets another ship. So the system would not work for half competent players that know to switch ships or fly in groups.

And the 'professionals' in Eve would most likely exploit it to make it even harder to sneak into their homes systems.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The ONLY real potential I see: AWOXing.... You tag your spy in the enemy fleet, and punt your fleet on top of them... The enemy fleet won't see probes, and wont have any real notice that the incoming fleet will land on top of them, leading to interesting fleet combat scenarios....



How would that work. OP already mentioned it would notify you that you had been tagged (hard to miss). So the rational strategy would be to have that player not be in the fleet and stay away till it is over.
Hell, the only good idea would be to then have him as bait essentially.
Pboyt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-06-26 19:57:59 UTC
FireT's posts continue to insult and provoke... 'Your idea is half alive waiting to die' (which I've already warned him about) and 'You seem to lack the patience and skill'.

I have both. The problem is I solo pvp. No amount of 'skill' or 'patience' gives me the ability to track down a safespotted enemy solo. Maybe it shouldnt - but if i've had the chance to engage him already in battle then maybe it should give me the right to warp on him.

Now if your about to say 'why dont you just fit a probe launcher to your solo pvp ship', thats not feasable. You cannot maintain a tank, maintain damage, maintain a point AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT probe. Its simply not possible.

.
FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#17 - 2012-06-26 20:01:38 UTC  |  Edited by: FireT
Pboyt wrote:
FireT's posts continue to insult and provoke... 'Your idea is half alive waiting to die' (which I've already warned him about) and 'You seem to lack the patience and skill'.

I have both. The problem is I solo pvp. No amount of 'skill' or 'patience' gives me the ability to track down a safespotted enemy solo. Maybe it shouldnt - but if i've had the chance to engage him already in battle then maybe it should give me the right to warp on him.

Now if your about to say 'why dont you just fit a probe launcher to your solo pvp ship', thats not feasable. You cannot maintain a tank, maintain damage, maintain a point AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT probe. Its simply not possible.

.


Ok let me clarify this once and for all.
You: I WANT A SECOND CHANCE TO PEW PEW. BUT I DO NOT WANT THEM TO HAVE A CHANCE TO ESCAPE.

Seriously? Shocked

Also reread the posts. Your idea is not practicle since you can not really chase someone that warps out. If they remain in system then they should have a chance to hide too. Else you simply force them to station gaming or system jumps. And if you also expect your tracker to work outside the initial system, then holy space cow, that would be even more broken.

The only possible way this could be limited is with the range it uses and that it would have to be limited to the system it occurred in.
Pboyt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-06-26 20:02:58 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The typical reason a tagged target would "get away" is if is fast enough to outrun your tackle.... Although it might be a lucky jam...
Essentially, if you're prey got away from you once, it will probably be able to get away from you again... meaning this rarely improve your chances of catching a tagged target....


Yea. That might be the case. But why is that an issue? Whenever you make a point that the module will not help you kill a target, it doesn't really argue against the module existing. It just simply means people will not use it in that scenario that you have suggested, which I have no objections to. You cannot invent a module which will be used all the time and be useful in all situations. That is unbalanced.

You offer times when it isnt useful - thats fine. However, I have clearly described a scenario earlier when it could be useful. Such as when I am a solo sleipnir that tagged a drake, then ran myself because another enemy scorpion was joining the fight, then later returned to the drake I tagged who happened to be ratting again in belts.

FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#19 - 2012-06-26 20:06:01 UTC
Pboyt wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The typical reason a tagged target would "get away" is if is fast enough to outrun your tackle.... Although it might be a lucky jam...
Essentially, if you're prey got away from you once, it will probably be able to get away from you again... meaning this rarely improve your chances of catching a tagged target....


Yea. That might be the case. But why is that an issue? Whenever you make a point that the module will not help you kill a target, it doesn't really argue against the module existing. It just simply means people will not use it in that scenario that you have suggested, which I have no objections to. You cannot invent a module which will be used all the time and be useful in all situations. That is unbalanced.

You offer times when it isnt useful - thats fine. However, I have clearly described a scenario earlier when it could be useful. Such as when I am a solo sleipnir that tagged a drake, then ran myself because another enemy scorpion was joining the fight, then later returned to the drake I tagged who happened to be ratting again in belts.



One case scenario does not make it a viable option to never be exploited in any shape or form. Reread my previous post for I edited some additional stuff into it.
Pboyt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-06-26 20:10:33 UTC
FireT wrote:
Pboyt wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The typical reason a tagged target would "get away" is if is fast enough to outrun your tackle.... Although it might be a lucky jam...
Essentially, if you're prey got away from you once, it will probably be able to get away from you again... meaning this rarely improve your chances of catching a tagged target....


Yea. That might be the case. But why is that an issue? Whenever you make a point that the module will not help you kill a target, it doesn't really argue against the module existing. It just simply means people will not use it in that scenario that you have suggested, which I have no objections to. You cannot invent a module which will be used all the time and be useful in all situations. That is unbalanced.

You offer times when it isnt useful - thats fine. However, I have clearly described a scenario earlier when it could be useful. Such as when I am a solo sleipnir that tagged a drake, then ran myself because another enemy scorpion was joining the fight, then later returned to the drake I tagged who happened to be ratting again in belts.



One case scenario does not make it a viable option to never be exploited in any shape or form. Reread my previous post for I edited some additional stuff into it.


Im trying to say that I cannot see a good enough exploit (yet) from everything being said. You both talk about how it can be abused, but the things you say dont sound like exploits, they just sound like you cant imagine the module will help in getting the kill
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