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The future of Community and CCL

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Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#41 - 2012-06-26 18:03:34 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
The rules of other forums, what they allow or do not allow is completely up to those communities and their administrators.


Indeed, it would merely have been used as a compare/contrast scenario to address some of your past questions. You have however requested I not go "there", and as such I will not. Thank you for the reply.
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#42 - 2012-06-26 18:04:42 UTC
Velicia Tuoro wrote:
Nice OP CCP Navigator. I think it's great that CCP are experimenting with this.

In my RL job I manage a community/forum that is entirely customer/volunteer moderated and they do a great job. What is very different to how you guys are approaching this is that we have effectively "given" the community to them. They own it. They ban. They control the rules. We advise and support, but don't overrule. We find we never need to.

This transparency of responsibility means our forum is an extremely constructive place. It allows our customers to rant at us, get support and feel like they aren't being spun/marketed to them. It's in a way, liberating. We get a lot of flack in there for the things we do wrong, but also a lot of positivity and suggestions for how to improve it.

The key to its success so far has been clear rules and an open dialog between the moderators and the moderation decisions being made. It is important for people who have "broken the rules" to have it explained to them what they've done and be allowed the chance to defend/explain their actions. This helps to break the us vs them attitude you sometimes see on forums websites.

One of the struggles this forum has is the sheer number of people who seem to simply enjoy trolling and just generally being argumentative. I sympathise with how difficult it must be to make the right decisions in these situations. You can't really win as you are going to upset someone now matter what you do, and having a policy of dialog around those decisions would be unworkable based on the volume. I watch with interest as to how you tackle it!


Thank you, Velicia.

We are currently looking at ways to introduce more moderation by the community, for the community. We are simply at the brainstorming part of 'How could we do is?' and 'Should we do this?' so nothing may ever come of it. We realize that such systems require a lot of planning to make them useful and fair.

That is pretty much all I can say about it at this time Smile
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#43 - 2012-06-26 18:04:46 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
We've been upset for a whole ******* lot longer than 24 hours.


urnotdoinitrite.... at all
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2012-06-26 18:06:53 UTC
I understand why CCP want to make the forums a more friendly place. However I am totally against cencorship in any form. Personal out of game attacks should be forbidden, but that is all that should be cencored.

Calling people idiots and forum bickering has led to ingame disputes in the past. That is emergent gameplay at its finest! CCP should encourage this. The new citizens Q&A should be a bit better protected, but to be honest, it was fine the way it was in the past. New players were encouraged and got the help they needed.

All the other forum sections should be as lightly moderated as possible. Locking threads and deleting posts should be the last actions and it should not be taken lightly.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-06-26 18:06:54 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Rats wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
Holy One wrote:
You don't need to tell someone they are offended or arbitrarily isolate them from the risk of being 'upset' by someone else on a forum. Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought control (ISD) deciding for us.

To attempt to conceal this *epic* paradigm shift in the cuddly in-offensive blanket of 'just trying to make it friendlier' is insulting to anyone's intelligence Herr Navigator.

Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism!


I am pretty sure we are polemically split on what we feel is required in terms of censorship. If there is not a rule set in place on a forum then why should people not post ****, trojans, malware and other stuff. Why should people not be outright hostile, menacing and threatening? Why should a productive discussion ever happen in that type of atmosphere? Perhaps you feel those should not be censored and people should survive on their ability to be savvy or not, as the case may be.

Believe me when I say, and you can quote me on this, players who do not want to be part of fair and reasonable discussions on these forums will soon find they do not belong on this discussion area at all. that is not designed to be a threat or convey a sense of malice but is intended to show our resolve to create a much more amiable atmosphere for players and developers in general.


Yet ppl that have mostly added to the discussion, Ruby Porto for example (although I disagree with what he says most of the time) have been perma banned for just posting joke threads as a protest.

They weren't being abusive, posting malware, RMT, menacing or trolling each other, actually saw ppl coming together that normally would not, because they care about the subject.


Why so heavy handed ?


Tal



I have no intention of discussing specific cases on the forums. You stated that you already have a petition on the subject so a Community Rep will be in otuch when we get to that in the queue.


Ok no specifics then, why is such a casual offence worth a perma ban. Is there a list of punishments to go against certain forum activities, rather than a general rule that is applied inconsistently depending on how someone feels about life that day ?


Tal


I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#46 - 2012-06-26 18:08:27 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums.


We've been upset for a whole ******* lot longer than 24 hours.

Whats the point of ISD? Seriously. I have never seen ISD do their job right in the entire time I've spent on these forums.


Thank you for your input, Akirei.

While you are entitled to your opinion we have received many petitions and mails from players who are thankful for the help they have received from ISD right across the board.

I am sorry that they do not meet your expectations.
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#47 - 2012-06-26 18:09:31 UTC
Rats wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
Rats wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
Holy One wrote:
You don't need to tell someone they are offended or arbitrarily isolate them from the risk of being 'upset' by someone else on a forum. Let people determine who is and who isn't annoying and/or offending them. They can ignore, filter and disseminate their own prejudices, based on their *own* subjective perspective. We don't need a ministry of thought control (ISD) deciding for us.

To attempt to conceal this *epic* paradigm shift in the cuddly in-offensive blanket of 'just trying to make it friendlier' is insulting to anyone's intelligence Herr Navigator.

Censorship = suppression. That is what you are advocating. Above and beyond. And it is not (and never has been) motivated by altruism!


I am pretty sure we are polemically split on what we feel is required in terms of censorship. If there is not a rule set in place on a forum then why should people not post ****, trojans, malware and other stuff. Why should people not be outright hostile, menacing and threatening? Why should a productive discussion ever happen in that type of atmosphere? Perhaps you feel those should not be censored and people should survive on their ability to be savvy or not, as the case may be.

Believe me when I say, and you can quote me on this, players who do not want to be part of fair and reasonable discussions on these forums will soon find they do not belong on this discussion area at all. that is not designed to be a threat or convey a sense of malice but is intended to show our resolve to create a much more amiable atmosphere for players and developers in general.


Yet ppl that have mostly added to the discussion, Ruby Porto for example (although I disagree with what he says most of the time) have been perma banned for just posting joke threads as a protest.

They weren't being abusive, posting malware, RMT, menacing or trolling each other, actually saw ppl coming together that normally would not, because they care about the subject.


Why so heavy handed ?


Tal



I have no intention of discussing specific cases on the forums. You stated that you already have a petition on the subject so a Community Rep will be in otuch when we get to that in the queue.


Ok no specifics then, why is such a casual offence worth a perma ban. Is there a list of punishments to go against certain forum activities, rather than a general rule that is applied inconsistently depending on how someone feels about life that day ?


Tal




Hi Tal,

I am not going to be discussing bans in this thread. Please respect that and move on.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#48 - 2012-06-26 18:11:24 UTC
Megnamon wrote:


I would politely disagree with this statement. After using forums of other games I believe the "New CCP" (meaning post Incarna) is interested and responsive to constructive feedback and complaints. Mind you that the operative word is constructive, not omgwtfbbq rants about the end of the EVE as we know it. For the most part, I believe that the more the commuicty is constructive in voicing opionions, CCP will continue to be more transparent and responsive. Of course the inverse is true. Honestly, who wants to even acknowledge someone who goes all personal attacks in their posts?



CCP did an unprecedented about face after Incarna, and while we all have grievances, ideas, and trolling to do about it, it has mostly lived up to its promise to never again mess up the way they did with Incarna.

So I take this opportunity to say another thing:

A lot of what is going on, a year after Incarna, is that you guys really messed up, really broke a lot of the implicit trust, and really destroyed a bond with a significant percent of your player base. Perhaps not the majority, but certainly the most vocal, and hence, influential, both on game, and in the forums, as well as the outside places that are, like it or not, part of the community.

And while you guys (CCP) have clearly worked hard to undo the damage done, it was very real. And as we know, it is easier to break something, than to put it back together.

So in this context, came the ISD moderator thing, and it was fumbled. What pre-Incarna might have been a small annoyance, is now amplified, motives questioned, fears developed, etc.

I admit, openly, I am still not sure what this whole moderation business is actually about. I am skeptical. And that is not helped by a terribly unauspicious start.

Because we are also human, with the difference being that while CCP gets paid to do this, we pay for the pleasure. That difference is not trivial, as we would hate to see our investment of time and money go up in smoke because CCP fails in the stewardship.

The fears might be unfounded, but it doesn't make any less real.
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2012-06-26 18:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: DeBingJos
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:

...
A lot of what is going on, a year after Incarna, is that you guys really messed up, really broke a lot of the implicit trust, and really destroyed a bond with a significant percent of your player base. Perhaps not the majority, but certainly the most vocal, and hence, influential, both on game, and in the forums, as well as the outside places that are, like it or not, part of the community.

And while you guys (CCP) have clearly worked hard to undo the damage done, it was very real. And as we know, it is easier to break something, than to put it back together.
...


Messing up is not bad if you learn from your mistakes. Personally I like the fact that CCP opens dialog with us when something is wrong. (Like this issue) pre-incarna this two-way communication did not exist as much.

I like the fact that they screw up and talk about it. Screwing up is normal, it means they are trying new stuff and moving forward. It does not always seem like it in my posts, but I really like CCP for that attitude!

Tx CCP for talking with us.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#50 - 2012-06-26 18:17:04 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
[quote=Megnamon]
...
A lot of what is going on, a year after Incarna, is that you guys really messed up, really broke a lot of the implicit trust, and really destroyed a bond with a significant percent of your player base. Perhaps not the majority, but certainly the most vocal, and hence, influential, both on game, and in the forums, as well as the outside places that are, like it or not, part of the community.

And while you guys (CCP) have clearly worked hard to undo the damage done, it was very real. And as we know, it is easier to break something, than to put it back together.
...


Messing up is not bad if you learn from your mistakes. Personally I like the fact that CCP opens dialog with us when something is wrong. (Like this issue) pre-incarna this two-way communication did not exist as much.

I like the fact that they screw up and talk about it. Screwing up is normal, it means they are trying new stuff and moving forward. It does not always seem like it in my posts, but I really like CCP for that attitude!

Tx CCP for talking with us.


You are more than welcome Smile
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#51 - 2012-06-26 18:18:15 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:

Quick question, what is the value in calling someone 'dumb'?


The purpose is not to insult. It is to make the person aware of a fact. Many people will not accept help until they are made aware they need help, and you have to tell them precisely why.

On the other hand, it is far far better to make the person aware of the need for help by giving reasons specific to the situation. Even if "You are dumb" is a completely true statement of fact, it is still an insult.

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Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#52 - 2012-06-26 18:18:29 UTC
Thank you Navigator for taking time to deal with this for the community.

I'll just put here my opinion on the matter of ISD communication from another thread.
Quote:
One thing that would go a long way towards better moderation would be if the ISDs invited us to contact them (through EVE mail) if we felt they did something wrongly. That way we could have a nice little discussion and maybe both the volunteers and the forum folks could learn a bit about each other (including how to better serve the community).


Instead we get one liners with no opening for explanation, because we can't discuss moderation on the forums.

Adding to this, the CSPA charge that is set adds further to the illusion that we shouldn't ask questions and just accept one liners.

It should be encouraged to discuss with the ISDs why they took the action they did. For those of us who are reasonable (some existSmile), it would be a great addition to communication and a method to improve community relations.


Maybe I'm just a dreamer.
Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
#53 - 2012-06-26 18:19:53 UTC
Quote:
Our aim is to provide a discussion platform that allows players, volunteers and developers to talk about EVE and how we can make it better, what you like and what you want to see more of in the future.


What you want then is a feedback forum, not General Discussion. Why repurpose GD when you can accomplish your goal with a more focused forum and save yourself the growing pains?

A feedback forum could serve your dual purpose:
- Get feedback on recently introduced and/or legacy development items
- Introduce new feature ideas for community concensus before implimentation (less design by committee, more pass/fail).

Quote:
I will be totally candid and tell you that this does not happen when any of these groups becomes abusive and vindictive. That type of discussion only ever results in one or more of those groups becoming more distant and non-communicative. That is not good for you, the players, and it is definitely not what our developers and volunteers want to see happening. So here is our plan for taking the EVE Community team and ISD forward:


Making plans around self-defining GD when the community has already defined it for you will end poorly.

I have years of gaming forum moderation experience under my belt, and hold three things to always be true:
- There needs to be an outlet for crap posts
- People want their crap posts to be seen
- Your most popular board will therefore be the natural home of crap posts


You can solve this problem in a number of ways:
- Create a feedback forum for your intentions, leaving General to be General (Quaaid Approved)
- Create a crap post forum, and let the trolls have it as you repurpose General to be your feedback hub ( mild end user change, harder to impliment)
- Stay the course, and learn the hard lessons, perhaps succeed where others have failed (constricting end user change, imminent failure)
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#54 - 2012-06-26 18:20:27 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Thank you Navigator for taking time to deal with this for the community.

I'll just put here my opinion on the matter of ISD communication from another thread.
Quote:
One thing that would go a long way towards better moderation would be if the ISDs invited us to contact them (through EVE mail) if we felt they did something wrongly. That way we could have a nice little discussion and maybe both the volunteers and the forum folks could learn a bit about each other (including how to better serve the community).


Instead we get one liners with no opening for explanation, because we can't discuss moderation on the forums.

Adding to this, the CSPA charge that is set adds further to the illusion that we shouldn't ask questions and just accept one liners.

It should be encouraged to discuss with the ISDs why they took the action they did. For those of us who are reasonable (some existSmile), it would be a great addition to communication and a method to improve community relations.


Maybe I'm just a dreamer.


I think having the ability to talk about improving the community with the Community team and ISD could make for a good podcast/Live Dev Blog.

I will see if this can be arranged but no promises Smile
killorbekilled TBE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-06-26 18:21:54 UTC
Let the authors of each new thread remove unwanted posts

the author can decide what is trolling or off topic

:)
Holy One
Privat Party
#56 - 2012-06-26 18:21:59 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:
It has become apparent over the last 24 hours that players are upset at the perceived locking of legitimate discussion threads on the forums.


We've been upset for a whole ******* lot longer than 24 hours.

Whats the point of ISD? Seriously. I have never seen ISD do their job right in the entire time I've spent on these forums.


Thank you for your input, Akirei.

While you are entitled to your opinion we have received many petitions and mails from players who are thankful for the help they have received from ISD right across the board.

I am sorry that they do not meet your expectations.


The noticeable change in your tone in just two pages kinda reveals the future of 'friendlier forums' to us. Thanks m8r.

:)
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#57 - 2012-06-26 18:23:01 UTC
A fair bit off topic, but since Navigator is already responding to this thread, can you please resume using the RSS feed for patch notes (found here - http://community.eveonline.com/feed/rdfpatchnotes.asp)?
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#58 - 2012-06-26 18:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Navigator
Quaaid wrote:
Quote:
Our aim is to provide a discussion platform that allows players, volunteers and developers to talk about EVE and how we can make it better, what you like and what you want to see more of in the future.


What you want then is a feedback forum, not General Discussion. Why repurpose GD when you can accomplish your goal with a more focused forum and save yourself the growing pains?

A feedback forum could serve your dual purpose:
- Get feedback on recently introduced and/or legacy development items
- Introduce new feature ideas for community concensus before implimentation (less design by committee, more pass/fail).

Quote:
I will be totally candid and tell you that this does not happen when any of these groups becomes abusive and vindictive. That type of discussion only ever results in one or more of those groups becoming more distant and non-communicative. That is not good for you, the players, and it is definitely not what our developers and volunteers want to see happening. So here is our plan for taking the EVE Community team and ISD forward:


Making plans around self-defining GD when the community has already defined it for you will end poorly.

I have years of gaming forum moderation experience under my belt, and hold three things to always be true:
- There needs to be an outlet for crap posts
- People want their crap posts to be seen
- Your most popular board will therefore be the natural home of crap posts


You can solve this problem in a number of ways:
- Create a feedback forum for your intentions, leaving General to be General (Quaaid Approved)
- Create a crap post forum, and let the trolls have it as you repurpose General to be your feedback hub ( mild end user change, harder to impliment)
- Stay the course, and learn the hard lessons, perhaps succeed where others have failed (constricting end user change, imminent failure)





'Crap posts' are not necessarily a problem. Abusive, spiteful and hateful posts most certainly are.

There are a wealth of forums which cater to this type of posting but this will not be one of them.
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#59 - 2012-06-26 18:23:51 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
It should be encouraged to discuss with the ISDs why they took the action they did. For those of us who are reasonable (some existSmile), it would be a great addition to communication and a method to improve community relations.


Maybe I'm just a dreamer.


I'll tie this into what I was going to discuss earlier. Other very successful EVE forums included a reason field when they dole out punishments. They also automatically create threads, that are publicly shown, to show: the rule broken, the punishment given, and the reason why. People can then comment on said threads to openly discuss moderation, ending up with a much more transparent system in which the rules are clearly defined, understood, and (generally speaking) accepted.

Basically, having a shadow area of mailto's and petitions to discuss moderation is bad. The more transparent you are about it, the more likely it will be accepted by the community at large (barring any necessary changes as voiced by the community). Whether CCP wants to try out such a system is entirely up to them, but in my opinion it works wonders.
CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
#60 - 2012-06-26 18:25:02 UTC
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
A fair bit off topic, but since Navigator is already responding to this thread, can you please resume using the RSS feed for patch notes (found here - http://community.eveonline.com/feed/rdfpatchnotes.asp)?


Hmmm, I will pass this on to the right people first thing in the morning.