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LvL 4's in a macharial
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drdxie
#1 - 2012-06-21 22:51:14 UTC
Is it worth trying to run LvL 4 missions in a mach with T1 meta 4 800ac's ?

I have just over 6,7 mil gunnery skill points, support skills to 4 and some to 5, and normally use T2 beams and Pulses on a NM.
Thanks to Somer blink I am the proud owner of a mac, but when I tried it I was very disappointed in its performance. I have never used AC's for missioning before, but no matter what range I am at, weather stationary or moving the applied dps was pretty poor, HQ puts my dps round 700.

Will T2 AC's make a big difference? and what range should I be shooting from, ie orbit at what range. I did try directly approach and shoot which worked OK, but the range closes fast and I take heavy damage. I know a lot of people love this ship and its applied damage, so hoping someone can advise on what to do to make it work for me.

My fit is full rack meta 4 800AC's, x-l SB, 2 x Invuln, 100mn AB, SBA, 4 x gyro's, 3 x TE's. I can run cap stable with the AB on.


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Songbird
#2 - 2012-06-21 23:40:16 UTC
I'm guessing your gallente bs is at least at 3 and of course minmatar bs as well.

Anyway - what are the advantages of mach -
ROF - you can shoot with maxed out skills at around 3-3.5s - apply this to frigate npc's and shoot them as they approach you at 25-60km
Speed - control your range - make sure the npc's approach at a straight line, but also tank with your speed if you need to.
Different damage types- explosive(fusion), thermal(phased plasma), em - even with t1 guns you should be able to outdps nightmare VS angel npc based on the resists alone
Tracking - 800mm AC's track so good you can reliably hit npc cruisers and BS's at 4-5 km and frigates at around 20, also don't be afraid to go in close and lay down the smack - your optimal(and max dps) is at very close range.
Drones - 125 m3 space - you can fit 4 large or sentry (or 2 flights of medium) and 5 light - keep the lights for any frig that sneaks under the guns, use the others to improve your dps.

And yes t2 guns will improve your DPS - probably not drastically(10% with specialization?) , same with implants and faction gyros - as with any ship - the more you fly it the more you understand it
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#3 - 2012-06-22 02:43:03 UTC
700 dps in a fitting tool sounds a bit low, I get a bit over 1k dps with guns only. also another good thing about the mach is you can use 4x heavy/sentry drones with the high gun dps to add around 200 dps.

the nightmare is one of the other best ships for mission running, and as you have better skills for that it might be why you feel a bit disappointed with the mach. a large bit might also be what you are shooting at, if its weak to the nightmare imo I'd rather use the nightmare. another bit is how you fly this ship, with the mach getting up close will up you dps by a good bit, as nearly all its range is falloff. keeping up speed helps to reduce incoming missile damage and get some trans on the npc battleships so their guns miss.

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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-06-22 03:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
Maybe you should link your fit. The Macharial should be fitted with all gank and just a little tank. Maybe you are over tanking it?

What ammo are you using?

You should have both Gallente and Minmatar BS to at least 4.

I have T2 guns but only use T1 ammo. My DPS gain would be 5 percent for large projectile turret 5 and 8 percent for AC spec to 4. This is a little bit but nothing significant.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#5 - 2012-06-22 08:38:22 UTC
If you have low skills (expecially tank skills) you are better starting with an old "school ship" like an arty Maelstrom.

Once your skills are IV on most tank and gank you can re-discover the Machariel and the joy of cleaning up everything with little tank due to the tremendous damage.

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drdxie
#6 - 2012-06-22 09:22:34 UTC
Thanks for the replies, guess I just need to use it a bit more and get used to the guns

Should have mentioned this, gallente and minmatar BS are at 4. Fit below. Evehq says 745 dps without drones. I use it against angels. Ab yes, I am probably over tanked.. 62k ehp and 783 tank. I prefer to use the LCCC rigs as I prefer the faster cap re-chard instead of saving cap on shield boosting.

[Machariel, 800 ac m4 2]

800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I_2, Fusion L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I_2, Fusion L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I_2, Fusion L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I_2, Fusion L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I_2, Fusion L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I_2, Fusion L
800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I_2, Fusion L

Shield Boost Amplifier II_2
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II_2
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II_2
Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster_1
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner_2

Gyrostabilizer II_2
Gyrostabilizer II_2
Gyrostabilizer II_2
Tracking Enhancer II_2
Tracking Enhancer II_2
Tracking Enhancer II_2
Gyrostabilizer II_2

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I_2
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I_2
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I_2




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Flakey Foont
#7 - 2012-06-22 23:42:30 UTC
You have a falloff probably near 50k, use it and keep moving. Mach is the fastest BS hull. Pop barrage in and around 80k. Take out frigs, then whatever is hitting you the most.
DbjaBol
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-06-23 01:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: DbjaBol
i fly paladin for 2 years and machariel for 6 month. machariel is crap. even with t2 guns and 3 enhancers you will have crap range. paladin with beams and 3 computers will burn minmatar ncps in close range with the same speed as machariel. mach's dps at 60k is a joke while paladin/nm with computers apply full dps at two different ranges. in missions i fly most enemies are at 40k/70k so i do twice and tripple dps as mach and i dont need to waste cap to get in range.
i would only swich to mach if you need ab/mwd.
Constable Chang
#9 - 2012-06-23 02:42:38 UTC
drdxie wrote:
Is it worth trying to run LvL 4 missions in a mach with T1 meta 4 800ac's ?

I have just over 6,7 mil gunnery skill points, support skills to 4 and some to 5, and normally use T2 beams and Pulses on a NM.
Thanks to Somer blink I am the proud owner of a mac, but when I tried it I was very disappointed in its performance. I have never used AC's for missioning before, but no matter what range I am at, weather stationary or moving the applied dps was pretty poor, HQ puts my dps round 700.

Will T2 AC's make a big difference? and what range should I be shooting from, ie orbit at what range. I did try directly approach and shoot which worked OK, but the range closes fast and I take heavy damage. I know a lot of people love this ship and its applied damage, so hoping someone can advise on what to do to make it work for me.

My fit is full rack meta 4 800AC's, x-l SB, 2 x Invuln, 100mn AB, SBA, 4 x gyro's, 3 x TE's. I can run cap stable with the AB on.




I run lvl4's with a Mach using exactly those guns. I keep thinking "ZOMG when I get t2 ac's this is going to rock!" because even with those t1 guns the Mach runs missions so fast. I don't find range a problem in most missions, with the t1 ac's, the Mach has so much maneuverability.

That said, there are missions I'd use a Raven for due to extreme range. Having at least 2 different ships is a good idea; one for missions where things are fairly close and another for missions where you want long range. I don't find artillery as good for rangy missions as I do cruise missiles or tachyon lasers.
drdxie
#10 - 2012-06-23 03:26:37 UTC
I have been doing some more testing. All this is against angels, specifically angel extravaganza. I dual box, so can easily compare 2 ships against each other. For EM weak rats, nothing beats a NM, well except 2 of them :)

The ships I have tried so far and all comparisons are done against 2 of the same angel BS's:

6 launcher tengu with 3 x CN BCS's. Scourge fury out performs Nova fury btw.
Golem, Nova fury cruise missiles and 2x TP, 3 x CN BCS. I will try a CNR next as the paper dps is almost 100 more
NM, T2 tachyon beams with IN Multi, 3 x IN heat sinks
Mach, above fit except I used Fleet fusion.

In order of the ship that kills the Angel BS the fastest:

Tengu > Golem > NM > mach.

Obviously not the best way to compare as I am better skilled for lasers and missiles. the tengu narrowly beats the Golem, so I think the CNR will do better. The NM was at 40km from its target and I found approaching the target in the mach and firing round 15-20km worked out best. Was a bit of a challenge to get the turret ships at their optimals at the same but.. but have been messing about for a few days now so am happy'ish with the results.
When I have some more isk to waste I will get the CNR and faction fit the mach, need to start saving for a rhea Shocked, and of course finish training to T2 large AC's. Also by tehn one of my toons will have T2 sentry, so will test against a rattlesnake with the new damage mods.
Also this really doesn't show which is more efficient at running the whole mission as shooting of the small ships will give varying results based on their range, but can say, if the frigs come in from range, the turret ships will win as you can insta pop the frigs before they get too close and have to start using drones, and as we all know HML and cruise missiles are not great for killing frigs.

If anyone has done something similar I would be curious to know their results.
mmmmm So bored again.. what to do next Lol

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Flakey Foont
#11 - 2012-06-23 04:45:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Flakey Foont
Good luck
stoicfaux
#12 - 2012-06-23 04:47:59 UTC
AE not including bonus room:
5 TP Golem (torps): 20m34s
Tengu: 33m45s
Vargur: 24m25s
MWD Mach: 17m57s

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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#13 - 2012-06-23 05:13:22 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
AE not including bonus room:
5 TP Golem (torps): 20m34s
Tengu: 33m45s
Vargur: 24m25s
MWD Mach: 17m57s



does that include shooting structures to prevent some of the spawns, or is that just killing all?

I've only run AE once (okay I might have afk ishtar'd a few times too) in the last year or so and that was just the other day in my mach, nearly had the whole thing in one bounty tick, only 3 ships spilled over into the next tick, and I know I messed up a bit in room 4. also I could have better implants for a mach. so I do believe Stoicfaux's time for it. in the past with other ships I mostly remember AE taking about 40 mins.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#14 - 2012-06-25 04:42:44 UTC
awwww mwd mach took longer.... mostly because I was too busy going WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! to kill the rats in any sort of timely fashion :p

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
DooDoo Gum
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-06-25 10:45:03 UTC
drdxie wrote:
mmmmm So bored again.. what to do next Lol


hrmm.... perhaps redo your testing... esp if your results point to your tengu taking out battleships faster than your golem
Flakey Foont
#16 - 2012-06-25 16:02:03 UTC
DooDoo Gum wrote:
drdxie wrote:
mmmmm So bored again.. what to do next Lol


hrmm.... perhaps redo your testing... esp if your results point to your tengu taking out battleships faster than your golem



I hear PvP can be fun too.
drdxie
#17 - 2012-06-25 20:23:50 UTC
DooDoo Gum wrote:
drdxie wrote:
mmmmm So bored again.. what to do next Lol


hrmm.... perhaps redo your testing... esp if your results point to your tengu taking out battleships faster than your golem


I too was very surprised. The golem does better volley damage but the rate of fire on the Tengu gave it the edge and won by getting its last volley in first. Did it several times to confirm, hence I think the CNR will do better withe the extra 100ish dps it gets with the similar fit.

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drdxie
#18 - 2012-06-25 20:28:25 UTC
Flakey Foont wrote:
DooDoo Gum wrote:
drdxie wrote:
mmmmm So bored again.. what to do next Lol


hrmm.... perhaps redo your testing... esp if your results point to your tengu taking out battleships faster than your golem



I hear PvP can be fun too.


Yep, I have a PVP toon in NULL, but the blob stuff gets a little boring and small gang stuff if very rare, and I suck terribly at solo Lol I also have a toon in a WH... so maybe try some FW.. but that seems almost as blobby as NULL.... don't get me wrong, I still love the game, maybe too much, and have no intention of quitting..

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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#19 - 2012-06-26 03:29:45 UTC
cruise golems do rather awful dps. cnr does about the same dps as a tengu although it will be explosive rather than kinetic. but it will likely need rigors and a painter to apply fury damage to angel battleships. also the cnr can fly with 3x sentry drones in addition to its launcher dps. I would guess that the cnr should be a bit faster than the tengu.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-06-26 03:45:43 UTC
A Golem is designed for torpedo launchers... Using cruise missle launchers on a Golem is fail.

If you want to use cruise missle launchers fly a CNR.
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