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Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2012-06-25 12:14:12 UTC
Some people used an exploit. It doesn't matter if it was the most expedient way of getting CCP to do something about it - they still shouldn't have used an exploit for personal gain.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#182 - 2012-06-25 12:54:51 UTC
This incident reminds me a lot of that time when the Zombies informed CCP of a problem with smartbombs and then proceeded to demonstrate the effects of that problem in Yulai after CCP ignored them.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#183 - 2012-06-25 13:03:37 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
This incident reminds me a lot of that time when the Zombies informed CCP of a problem with smartbombs and then proceeded to demonstrate the effects of that problem in Yulai after CCP ignored them.

Easier to fix a real exploit than a theoretical one. Means you're more likely to get it right.

Nyan
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#184 - 2012-06-25 18:05:58 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Seriously, you claimed that the prohibition of Ex Post Facto laws wasn't widespread. That's clearly false. Where are you going with this?

Talk of Ex Post Facto is moronic considering that the EULA already covers the FW LP thing, in that gaining something at an "accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play" is not allowed.

RubyPorto wrote:
So you're saying that Tech needs to be rolled back a few years, NPC PI abusers need to be rolled back, and everyone needs to be rolled back 9 years for abusing Local?

Risk vs. Rewards.

We all know that there's risk involved when pushing the rules, and many of us put up billions knowing we might lose out on NPC PI. That CCP didn't revert meant we got lucky, not that a precedent was set.

Seriously much butthurt from goons lately.


The accelerated rate quote is the part of the EULA that covers botting. Context, my dear, is key.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#185 - 2012-06-25 18:13:47 UTC
Alaya Carrier wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Like Tech? It's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?
What about the dozens of other patch day billionaires? They abused unintended Game mechanics. Where's their banhammer/wallet drain?
What about people abusing Local, using it as an intel tool? That's an unintended Game mechanic. It's being abused. Where's the banhammer/wallet drain?

Clearly, abusing unintended Game mechanics is not a ban/wallet drain worthy offense. Whether it be by precedent or consistent application of some hidden law (there, I covered Common and Civil law for you), there is no good justification for the Jewbal to be banned or have their wallets drained.


Tech is not an unintended game mechanic. There are precious battle objectives like in most PvP games and somebody was good enough to go take and hold them.
They are distributed bad, true, but that's really a game flaw, not a game mechanic flaw.
They require thousands of people cooperating over months.

Also, holding a cartel has very high risks and needs consensus from PL and other enemies. If they manage to do that, hats to them. That's an emergent game mechanics at play. It still deserves CCP to look at it to re-position the battle objectives in a more even way but that's it.

"Abusing local" is not an abuse, because where it's deemed to be an appropriate usage it's been left, where it's been deemed to bring unfair advantages it's been removed (WHs).

Now I know you are totally invested and thus unable to any critic view on what the abusers have done but it does not change that this abuse lacks of the factors that make other mechanics legit.

- Nobody creates twitters or threads about how smart they were at using local. Local is a (wrong imo) foundation feature of EvE. Nobody gets 5 trillions by looking at local while spamming a G15 macro (debatable in itself).

- Nobody takes 70% of the moons in 5, in few weeks. If they found a way, they'd break the very fabric upon which the game is meant to work and it has to be fixed ASAP.

Now keep quoting and bringing in excuses, excuses and more excuses, CCP will not listen to a single of them. They did not even subscribe to your Rights Laws.


CCP has straight out said that they didn't intend for Tech to be as lucrative as it is (they said this before OTEC) because they didn't anticipate the bottleneck to be so strong.

CCP has also said that Local as an intel tool wasn't intended.

Ratters create trillions of isk a month in safety by using local as an intel tool.

Unintended Game Results are not Bugs. They are not Exploits.

Had the LP payout been bugged and given out 10x the LP for certain items, that would be a bug to be exploited.
Had some items not worked with regards to the 90d trailing average price, that would be a bug to be exploited.

The LP payout worked exactly as CCP intended. The 90d Trailing average worked exactly as CCP intended. The combination lead to some interesting gameplay that surprised CCP, but, as we know, Gameplay that surprises CCP isn't a bad thing.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#186 - 2012-06-25 18:16:34 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
I am quite surprised that it took such an event to alert CCP to a fact they were warned about before the FW changes were implemented a few weeks ago. I clearly recall the warnings about such things happening. I am not condoning what has been done, but I do think that CCP where well forewarned of such a 'feature' becoming a full-blown exploit.

Punishing the guilty ? Hell, they should be rewarded for exposing this otherwise terrible flaw. Did they make that much profit ? Yes, for sure they did, but extreme punishment is not called for here. Way too many emotions colouring any form of fair judgement - judgement which only CCP will make, not all the bleating for blood I read in these forums.

In effect, this was a case of "we're giving you this huge bag of sweets, don't take more than you need." Of course people are going to work out a way to overextend their appetites, what did anyone expect was going to happen ?

I say remove from the guilty wallets up until just before FW was implemented, that data is easily on-hand for CCP for those involved. But bannings and total wallet wipes ? Over-reacting is just as bad as exposing any exploit. A firm but fair decision is called for, not a decision polluted by the emotions of other players.

Write what you will, it's up to CCP to apply the punishment, not anyone here.

You say " they were warned about before the FW changes were implemented a few weeks ago"
then say "Hell, they should be rewarded for exposing this otherwise terrible flaw"

You have already said the flaw was known before hand, all this has done is waste CCP resources better spent elsewhere and make it look like CCP should be happy about having there face rubbed in it.

It is up to CCP to decide a fair punishment for multiple breaches of the rules.


Players cannot know whether something is a flaw before CCP says it's a flaw. If you report something as a potential flaw before it goes live to TQ (in this case, it was pointed out to CCP in fanfest, before it went live to SiSi), and that something goes live on TQ without CCP saying "hey, this is a flaw, don't use it until we fix it," it's not a flaw.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#187 - 2012-06-25 18:17:26 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
This incident reminds me a lot of that time when the Zombies informed CCP of a problem with smartbombs and then proceeded to demonstrate the effects of that problem in Yulai after CCP ignored them.



Yep. The Zombies who kept doing it after being told to knock it off got banned. The rest were fine.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
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