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exploit vs. sloppy game mechanic design
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Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Doomheim
#221 - 2012-06-25 12:17:08 UTC
Vicata Heth wrote:
Ris Dnalor wrote:
I say the goons did what anyone would do with the new LP store.

They figured out the best way to make isk with the programmed mechanics.

They did it really really well.

If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.

But it wasn't

That's noones' fault but CCP.

Correcting the problem is fine, but punishing those who showed entrepreneurial spirit would be a far worse blow than any hit the economy has taken by GoonSwarms actions.

The economy will recover itself in time.

But the sandbox will take far longer to recover if CCP acts too harshly in their response.



I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it.

Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please?


That's stupid, we're players. We pay to play, what you're saying is CCP's job.
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Doomheim
#222 - 2012-06-25 12:20:05 UTC
I didn't wanted to get involved is this thread but can't avoid replying a stupid statement.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2012-06-25 12:20:58 UTC
Vicata Heth wrote:
I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it.

Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please?

I expect you'll do the honourable thing and call for bans of everyone who's insurance frauded, bought PA to refine for nocx, bought POSes to refine into PI components prior to PI being released proper, people using various tricks such as ECCM to become unprobable, titans to POS bowl with, tracking titans to take over whole regions etc etc etc, too?

I mean, wouldn't want you to look unfair, now would we?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#224 - 2012-06-25 12:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Lord Zim wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it.

Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please?

I expect you'll do the honourable thing and call for bans of everyone who's insurance frauded, bought PA to refine for nocx, bought POSes to refine into PI components prior to PI being released proper, people using various tricks such as ECCM to become unprobable, titans to POS bowl with, tracking titans to take over whole regions etc etc etc, too?

I mean, wouldn't want you to look unfair, now would we?



You forgot those cloacky alts abusing game mechanics to make anom sites not respawn, this was known and over known by CCP and talked about in hundreds pages/posts

Ships refining to get more minerals than those you needed to build them

The latest one is those pirate ship bpc contracts with ME/PE unusual. Didn't heard about bans or negawallets for this, and how much isk was done with? megatons Lol

And the list is so long but worthless to explain to brainless birds.

brb
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#225 - 2012-06-25 12:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vicata Heth
Lord Zim wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it.

Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please?

I expect you'll do the honourable thing and call for bans of everyone who's insurance frauded, bought PA to refine for nocx, bought POSes to refine into PI components prior to PI being released proper, people using various tricks such as ECCM to become unprobable, titans to POS bowl with, tracking titans to take over whole regions etc etc etc, too?

I mean, wouldn't want you to look unfair, now would we?


Also, none of your examples are on the same scale as the FW manipulation as I'll call it. My opinion is that the problem should be solved, and any ill gotten gains reversed. They contacted CCP and informed them about it, didn't post the manipulation details beforehand either. So in my eyes that should keep them clear of any bans or losses. However I also think they were trying to take the **** with it, and wouldn't be surprised to see they were trying to keep some of the isk either.
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
#226 - 2012-06-25 12:32:57 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
I'm not sure if this is relevant but maybe CCP should have read some of the comments when they first announced the changes to FW a few months ago.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1273664#post1273664


Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first.


Well, they (CCP) definitely knew it could be abused and released it anyway. They (CCP) definitely did know about it and chose to ignore what players told them. Why would they do that instead of fixing it before release?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2012-06-25 12:35:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Vicata Heth wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it.

Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please?

I expect you'll do the honourable thing and call for bans of everyone who's insurance frauded, bought PA to refine for nocx, bought POSes to refine into PI components prior to PI being released proper, people using various tricks such as ECCM to become unprobable, titans to POS bowl with, tracking titans to take over whole regions etc etc etc, too?

I mean, wouldn't want you to look unfair, now would we?


Also, none of your examples are on the same scale as the FW manipulation as I'll call it. My opinion is that the problem should be solved, and any ill gotten gains reversed. They contacted CCP and informed them about it, didn't post the manipulation details beforehand either. So in my eyes that should keep them clear of any bans or losses. However I also think they were trying to take the **** with it, and wouldn't be surprised to see they were trying to keep some of the isk either.

So you're not looking for legality to base whether or not punishments should be doled out, but isk value.

Can you put an isk value on the PI manipulation? Can you put an isk value on the PA refining manipulation? Can you put an isk value on the usage of gunmining to build tons of titans, supercarriers and shipping tons of drone poo to hisec, only to be redistributed onwards across hisec/lowsec/nullsec to be used for further manufacturing? Can you put an isk value on what the gunmining's impact on miners' income was?

Edit: PS, they didn't get any ISK, they spent it.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#228 - 2012-06-25 12:38:01 UTC
People still saying goons got trillions of ISK.

They didn't. They got implants, bpcs, and datacores worth trillions at today's prices.

It was going to take them many months to actually cash those items, probably in a depressing market.

The final isk/time gain might have ended in the range of at least one past loophole I can think of, the trillions out of which were never nullified by CCP of course.
Frying Doom
#229 - 2012-06-25 12:39:59 UTC
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
I'm not sure if this is relevant but maybe CCP should have read some of the comments when they first announced the changes to FW a few months ago.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1273664#post1273664


Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first.


Well, they (CCP) definitely knew it could be abused and released it anyway. They (CCP) definitely did know about it and chose to ignore what players told them. Why would they do that instead of fixing it before release?

Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug.

And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans.

Every thing in life contains bugs that result in stupid things occurring if they are abused that is why we have laws and rules.

Otherwise anarchy would rule supreme, it doesn't in most parts of the world and morons who deliberately break rules and then yell about it to the media get punished.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2012-06-25 12:43:58 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug.

CCP have stated repeatedly that they're turning over a new leaf and not releasing things before they're satisfied with their quality. The CCP of olde would've released things and say "we'll fix it later". See: Captain's Quarters.

Frying Doom wrote:
And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans.

Ev0ke abused a programming bug for years. Insurance fraud, POS bit refinery into PI bits, PA refinery into nocx, titan POS bowling and tracking titans were the creative use of published in-game mechanics, which have never been punished before, at all.

Saying "the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans" doesn't match up with previous incidents.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#231 - 2012-06-25 12:53:07 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug.

CCP have stated repeatedly that they're turning over a new leaf and not releasing things before they're satisfied with their quality. The CCP of olde would've released things and say "we'll fix it later". See: Captain's Quarters.

Frying Doom wrote:
And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans.

Ev0ke abused a programming bug for years. Insurance fraud, POS bit refinery into PI bits, PA refinery into nocx, titan POS bowling and tracking titans were the creative use of published in-game mechanics, which have never been punished before, at all.

Saying "the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans" doesn't match up with previous incidents.


So clearly we should let it continue even though it has a negative effect on the game.
Frying Doom
#232 - 2012-06-25 12:54:56 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug.

CCP have stated repeatedly that they're turning over a new leaf and not releasing things before they're satisfied with their quality. The CCP of olde would've released things and say "we'll fix it later". See: Captain's Quarters.

Frying Doom wrote:
And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans.

Ev0ke abused a programming bug for years. Insurance fraud, POS bit refinery into PI bits, PA refinery into nocx, titan POS bowling and tracking titans were the creative use of published in-game mechanics, which have never been punished before, at all.

Saying "the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans" doesn't match up with previous incidents.

Yes so we should all be happy now that CCP are responding quicker to people breaking the rules.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#233 - 2012-06-25 12:55:58 UTC
Many of us are letting goon hate cloud are judgement.

When a child is violated are you not appalled?

Yet when that child is a goon you cheer?

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#234 - 2012-06-25 12:57:06 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
Many of us are letting goon hate cloud are judgement.

When a child is violated are you not appalled?

Yet when that child is a goon you cheer?


Liked for implying goons are children :D
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Doomheim
#235 - 2012-06-25 12:58:21 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
I'm not sure if this is relevant but maybe CCP should have read some of the comments when they first announced the changes to FW a few months ago.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1273664#post1273664


Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first.


Well, they (CCP) definitely knew it could be abused and released it anyway. They (CCP) definitely did know about it and chose to ignore what players told them. Why would they do that instead of fixing it before release?

Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug.

And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans.

Every thing in life contains bugs that result in stupid things occurring if they are abused that is why we have laws and rules.

Otherwise anarchy would rule supreme, it doesn't in most parts of the world and morons who deliberately break rules and then yell about it to the media get punished.


Anarchy doesn't rule. Anarchy is anti-ruling.
Abstracting other stupid content from post. I don't want to waste my time.
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
#236 - 2012-06-25 12:58:58 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
I'm not sure if this is relevant but maybe CCP should have read some of the comments when they first announced the changes to FW a few months ago.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1273664#post1273664


Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first.


Well, they (CCP) definitely knew it could be abused and released it anyway. They (CCP) definitely did know about it and chose to ignore what players told them. Why would they do that instead of fixing it before release?

Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug.

And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans.

Every thing in life contains bugs that result in stupid things occurring if they are abused that is why we have laws and rules.

Otherwise anarchy would rule supreme, it doesn't in most parts of the world and morons who deliberately break rules and then yell about it to the media get punished.

If it was a known bug then surely CCP would have fixed it before release or made a post explaining it was a bug.

Everything in life contains bugs?Lol I have no idea what you are talking about but I think it would be best if we stuck to the mechanics/rules of computer games when discussing this issue.

Anyway, the 'rules and laws' which you talk about are made by CCP and they ignored feedback when people told them that their 'rules and laws' were not good enough.

You should probably stop calling people names, confusing real life laws and rules with computer game mechanics, stop making excuses for CCP and ask yourself 'How did CCP manage to ignore feedback that explicitely mentioned this issue and release it anyway?'
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2012-06-25 13:07:40 UTC
Vicata Heth wrote:
So clearly we should let it continue even though it has a negative effect on the game.

The precedence, which Frying Doom keeps harping on about, on how CCP dealt with this kind of situation in the past has been to tell people it's now considered an exploit, punish those who persist in using it in that fashion (citation needed, I haven't really heard of many people being punished for doing this), change the mechanic to stop people from the creative way they were using it, and move on. This has apparently changed.

I expect the devblog will be detailing that this is the new line with which CCP will deal with any creative use of any game mechanic in future.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#238 - 2012-06-25 13:08:27 UTC
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
I'm not sure if this is relevant but maybe CCP should have read some of the comments when they first announced the changes to FW a few months ago.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1273664#post1273664


Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first.


Well, they (CCP) definitely knew it could be abused and released it anyway. They (CCP) definitely did know about it and chose to ignore what players told them. Why would they do that instead of fixing it before release?

Like I said in the rest of that. Maybe they wanted to get it out rather than waiting for ever to test every possible bug.

And maybe they believed that EvE did not contain anyone stupid enough to then try and exploit a known bug especially as the rules clearly state doing so result in permanent bans.

Every thing in life contains bugs that result in stupid things occurring if they are abused that is why we have laws and rules.

Otherwise anarchy would rule supreme, it doesn't in most parts of the world and morons who deliberately break rules and then yell about it to the media get punished.

If it was a known bug then surely CCP would have fixed it before release or made a post explaining it was a bug.

Everything in life contains bugs?Lol I have no idea what you are talking about but I think it would be best if we stuck to the mechanics/rules of computer games when discussing this issue.

Anyway, the 'rules and laws' which you talk about are made by CCP and they ignored feedback when people told them that their 'rules and laws' were not good enough.

You should probably stop calling people names, confusing real life laws and rules with computer game mechanics, stop making excuses for CCP and ask yourself 'How did CCP manage to ignore feedback that explicitely mentioned this issue and release it anyway?'

We are not taking about a characters perspective this is in the real world. In the EvE universe the planets are not run by computer code. Out here in the real world it is. We are not in a computer game and here in real life actions have consequences. They broke multiple rules that exist in the real world most notably the ones in the section marked Banable Offences.

But I cannot say I am aware of people telling CCP that there rules and laws were flawed just the game mechanics.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#239 - 2012-06-25 13:08:37 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
Many of us are letting goon hate cloud are judgement.

When a child is violated are you not appalled?

Yet when that child is a goon you cheer?


That is one of the most sensible posts.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Frying Doom
#240 - 2012-06-25 13:10:03 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Vicata Heth wrote:
So clearly we should let it continue even though it has a negative effect on the game.

The precedence, which Frying Doom keeps harping on about, on how CCP dealt with this kind of situation in the past has been to tell people it's now considered an exploit, punish those who persist in using it in that fashion (citation needed, I haven't really heard of many people being punished for doing this), change the mechanic to stop people from the creative way they were using it, and move on. This has apparently changed.

I expect the devblog will be detailing that this is the new line with which CCP will deal with any creative use of any game mechanic in future.

They broke the rules, pure and simple.

They rubbed CCP's face in it, pure and simple.

They should be punished pure and simple.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!