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exploit vs. sloppy game mechanic design
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Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#201 - 2012-06-24 23:48:14 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol


depends, how painful is RSI?


Im betting you play more than I do; you tell me

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#202 - 2012-06-24 23:58:40 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol


depends, how painful is RSI?


Im betting you play more than I do; you tell me


doesn't mean he whacks off more than you :P
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#203 - 2012-06-24 23:59:16 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol


depends, how painful is RSI?


Im betting you play more than I do; you tell me


doesn't mean he whacks off more than you :P


Also likely; Im a vampire. No sex drive

look it up. Malkavian

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#204 - 2012-06-25 09:07:14 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
The quote you make doesn't in any way support your argument.
Of course it does, you simply have an issue with understanding. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#205 - 2012-06-25 10:11:22 UTC
Oh look goonies exploiting the game and then using their alts to defend themselves

and the sad thing is CCP will bend to their will, just like they did over the inferno war mechanics
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2012-06-25 10:13:25 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Oh look goonies exploiting the game and then using their alts to defend themselves

and the sad thing is CCP will bend to their will, just like they did over the inferno war mechanics

Let's see you eat that shoe when you're proven wrong.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#207 - 2012-06-25 11:06:37 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
I'll try and help.

Ask yourself this: Why did CCP add Faction Wars in the first place? From what I read, CCP wanted Faction Wars to be a place where you could do more casual PVP, a place where newer players could perhaps start their PVP life. I suppose sorta like RVB. So, it wasn't supposed to be a place to earn untold trillion of iskies. But, if you did well in Faction Wars, you'd be more rewarded than if you didn't do well, perhaps enough to keep funding your PVP without having to jump into a PVE ship. To me, that sounds pretty good. Lower risk because your losses can be covered to a degree, and lots of reds to shoot.

The mechanic of "one faction player blows up opposing faction player ship, that faction player receives juicy LP in proportion to the estimated ISK value, including cargo items" makes sense when you think of two cruisers locking horns in epic fighting on a gate. The more isk you spent on your fittings, the better your odds of killing someone, but it also might make you harder to kill thus giving a bit more reward for killing that guy.

All this to me sounds reasonable.

But then, the some Goons show up to the party. "Who invited these guys?!" They join all sides with alts and drive freighter's filled to the rim with ore/items into their own waiting alts on the opposing side and reap ungodly amounts of LP's from the system. Then, using these ill gotten LP's, muck up the whole works with upgrading systems and the like, destroying the whole premise of Faction Wars and system control. They send the whole thing into disarray, much to the chagrin of everyone involved in Faction Wars. Not all of course as some of them were earning a bit more than they probably expected.

This was NOT the intent of the Faction Wars loyalty reward system. You can argue that the devs should have made sure this couldn't happen, but it can also be argued that anyone abusing this aspect of the reward system are breaking the EULA.





This

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
Frying Doom
#208 - 2012-06-25 11:10:19 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Oh look goonies exploiting the game and then using their alts to defend themselves

and the sad thing is CCP will bend to their will, just like they did over the inferno war mechanics

Let's see you eat that shoe when you're proven wrong.

Would be nice but I will bet on them just taking what they have and that is all. Just to keep everyone unhappy.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Mandos2k
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2012-06-25 11:13:16 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.

But it wasn't

That's noones' fault but CCP.


What you are describing is the very nature of bugs and exploitable game mechanics which the TOS expressly forbids. You are advocating cheating.



Ris Dnalor wrote:
Correcting the problem is fine, but punishing those who showed entrepreneurial spirit would be a far worse blow than any hit the economy has taken by GoonSwarms actions.


They deliberately and in full knowledge intentionally looked for exploitable oversights to cheat. Their published smug summaries clearly showed that.


The only redeeming feature Goons have is that they made it public, which they deserve credit for. Everything else was plain old cheating.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#210 - 2012-06-25 11:16:24 UTC
Ynot Eyob wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
I'll try and help.

Ask yourself this: Why did CCP add Faction Wars in the first place? From what I read, CCP wanted Faction Wars to be a place where you could do more casual PVP, a place where newer players could perhaps start their PVP life. I suppose sorta like RVB. So, it wasn't supposed to be a place to earn untold trillion of iskies. But, if you did well in Faction Wars, you'd be more rewarded than if you didn't do well, perhaps enough to keep funding your PVP without having to jump into a PVE ship. To me, that sounds pretty good. Lower risk because your losses can be covered to a degree, and lots of reds to shoot.

The mechanic of "one faction player blows up opposing faction player ship, that faction player receives juicy LP in proportion to the estimated ISK value, including cargo items" makes sense when you think of two cruisers locking horns in epic fighting on a gate. The more isk you spent on your fittings, the better your odds of killing someone, but it also might make you harder to kill thus giving a bit more reward for killing that guy.

All this to me sounds reasonable.

But then, the some Goons show up to the party. "Who invited these guys?!" They join all sides with alts and drive freighter's filled to the rim with ore/items into their own waiting alts on the opposing side and reap ungodly amounts of LP's from the system. Then, using these ill gotten LP's, muck up the whole works with upgrading systems and the like, destroying the whole premise of Faction Wars and system control. They send the whole thing into disarray, much to the chagrin of everyone involved in Faction Wars. Not all of course as some of them were earning a bit more than they probably expected.

This was NOT the intent of the Faction Wars loyalty reward system. You can argue that the devs should have made sure this couldn't happen, but it can also be argued that anyone abusing this aspect of the reward system are breaking the EULA.





This

So what part of the EULA did they break?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#211 - 2012-06-25 11:18:37 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Oh look goonies exploiting the game and then using their alts to defend themselves

and the sad thing is CCP will bend to their will, just like they did over the inferno war mechanics

Let's see you eat that shoe when you're proven wrong.

Would be nice but I will bet on them just taking what they have and that is all. Just to keep everyone unhappy.

And since "taken what they have" is more than "what was gained from this heist", what would have to be done to keep "everyone" from being "unhappy"? "ban all goons"?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#212 - 2012-06-25 11:37:47 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Oh look goonies exploiting the game and then using their alts to defend themselves

and the sad thing is CCP will bend to their will, just like they did over the inferno war mechanics

Let's see you eat that shoe when you're proven wrong.

Would be nice but I will bet on them just taking what they have and that is all. Just to keep everyone unhappy.

And since "taken what they have" is more than "what was gained from this heist", what would have to be done to keep "everyone" from being "unhappy"? "ban all goons"?

You should know by now that although I despise some of the stupid things Goonswarm members do, EvE would be worse off without Goonswarm, would be helpful if there was more sov war ect.. but that's mechanics.

As to this the precedent exits for being a moron with an exploit. The POS bug and the punishment that followed. I think that would be fitting especially as they rubbed CCP's face in it and actually broke another rule to do so.

But they won't these 5 should count them selves happy if all they get is what has already been done.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Doomheim
#213 - 2012-06-25 11:41:32 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol


depends, how painful is RSI?


Im betting you play more than I do; you tell me


doesn't mean he whacks off more than you :P


Also likely; Im a vampire. No sex drive

look it up. Malkavian


OMG they are here.
Beware.
Next winter Batman is coming to EVE.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2012-06-25 11:43:10 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
As to this the precedent exits for being a moron with an exploit. The POS bug and the punishment that followed.

Except that was
1) Abuse of a programming bug, not creative use of a well-documented public game mechanic.
2) Abuse of said programming bug was done over a period of years.

By that logic, people who abused insurance fraud, refined POS bits into various PI components, bought PA to refine into nocx whenever nocx got past 900 isk, used titans to go POS bowling, used tracking titans to take over whole regions etc, should also be banned.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#215 - 2012-06-25 11:43:23 UTC
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:


OMG they are here.
Beware.
Next winter Batman is coming to EVE.

Is that the comic version, if so which one?
The camp version or the early movie one or the late movie one?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#216 - 2012-06-25 11:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
As to this the precedent exits for being a moron with an exploit. The POS bug and the punishment that followed.

Except that was
1) Abuse of a programming bug, not creative use of a well-documented public game mechanic.
2) Abuse of said programming bug was done over a period of years.

By that logic, people who abused insurance fraud, refined POS bits into various PI components, bought PA to refine into nocx whenever nocx got past 900 isk, used titans to go POS bowling, used tracking titans to take over whole regions etc, should also be banned.

Just as Morons who waste resources by requiring a known bug to have to be rapidly repaired while so much more in EvE needs fixing should be banned.

So they are partly responsible for this 672MB patch and should be banhammered to hell and back.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2012-06-25 11:58:18 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
As to this the precedent exits for being a moron with an exploit. The POS bug and the punishment that followed.

Except that was
1) Abuse of a programming bug, not creative use of a well-documented public game mechanic.
2) Abuse of said programming bug was done over a period of years.

By that logic, people who abused insurance fraud, refined POS bits into various PI components, bought PA to refine into nocx whenever nocx got past 900 isk, used titans to go POS bowling, used tracking titans to take over whole regions etc, should also be banned.

Just as Morons who waste resources by requiring a known bug to have to be rapidly repaired while so much more in EvE needs fixing should be banned.

So they are partly responsible for this 672MB patch and should be banhammered to hell and back.

In other words, ban everyone.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Doomheim
#218 - 2012-06-25 12:08:03 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:


OMG they are here.
Beware.
Next winter Batman is coming to EVE.

Is that the comic version, if so which one?
The camp version or the early movie one or the late movie one?


It's a new version. Space Batman, made specially for CQ and WiS features.
Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#219 - 2012-06-25 12:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vicata Heth
Ris Dnalor wrote:
I say the goons did what anyone would do with the new LP store.

They figured out the best way to make isk with the programmed mechanics.

They did it really really well.

If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.

But it wasn't

That's noones' fault but CCP.

Correcting the problem is fine, but punishing those who showed entrepreneurial spirit would be a far worse blow than any hit the economy has taken by GoonSwarms actions.

The economy will recover itself in time.

But the sandbox will take far longer to recover if CCP acts too harshly in their response.



I say I don't care what you think. You can pull definitions out of your ass all you want and argue over whether it's truly exploiting or whether they just took advantage of game mechanics. The fact is, they weren't supposed to be able to obtain trillions of ISK in such a short period of time via the FW system. They took the ****. If they truly wanted to help the community/CCP as they claim, then why didn't they do it with alts, or keep records of what was used and obtained in the process, and forward those records to CCP to simplify the process of reversing any damage, and ensure they didn't lose anything as a result? Because they wanted to take the ****. This is where CCP used common sense and intervened. I don't necessarily think they should lose items as a result, but the people involved should have had the brains to know CCP wouldn't approve of what they were doing, and take precautionary measures to ensure they didn't take any losses from it.

Could you make another thread for goons to cry in please?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#220 - 2012-06-25 12:15:46 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
By that logic, people who abused insurance fraud, refined POS bits into various PI components, bought PA to refine into nocx whenever nocx got past 900 isk, used titans to go POS bowling, used tracking titans to take over whole regions etc, should also be banned.


I'd be OK with all of that.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.