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exploit vs. sloppy game mechanic design

Author
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2012-06-24 21:18:32 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
http://jestertrek.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/total-war.html

Actually, heh, I hadn't read that one yet. So he's claiming we lost ships at a hysterical rate, panicked and whined?

The only reason I even knew we were at war with jade (I never read the wardec mails, they're irrelevant chaff) was Jade's whining about how CCP were changing the wardec mechanic because of goons, and totally and utterly ignoring the fact that tons of corps had tons of free wars, and that every war available to the general public was being dogpiled. Nooooo, that's certainly not it, it has to be the goon conspiracy.

Sigh.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Mag's
Azn Empire
#182 - 2012-06-24 21:23:12 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse"..


Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts.

Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me!

The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread.
You are wrong. He used the keyboard, in the way CCP have already deemed to be OK.

GM Karidor wrote:
1) Keyboard macros a'la the G15 Logitech keyboard
This really depends on the exact useof those keyboard macros. General guideline: Automating gameplay: bad. Turning on all your hardeners with one key press: fine

The essence of the EULA is to prevent cheating. Cheating is defined currently by the EULA as automating gameplay to an extent that is not achievable by a human being. A player usinga macro to achieve (or sustain) automated gameplay will be at risk for warning or more severe actions.


Linkage.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Lexmana
#183 - 2012-06-24 21:35:26 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse"..


Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts.

Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me!

The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread.
You are wrong. He used the keyboard, in the way CCP have already deemed to be OK.

GM Karidor wrote:
1) Keyboard macros a'la the G15 Logitech keyboard
This really depends on the exact useof those keyboard macros. General guideline: Automating gameplay: bad. Turning on all your hardeners with one key press: fine

The essence of the EULA is to prevent cheating. Cheating is defined currently by the EULA as automating gameplay to an extent that is not achievable by a human being. A player usinga macro to achieve (or sustain) automated gameplay will be at risk for warning or more severe actions.


Linkage.

Maybe you should read what GM Karidor actually wrote: "A player usinga macro to achieve (or sustain) automated gameplay will be at risk for warning or more severe actions.".

How is using a macro to automate LP store purchases so you don't have to be at the computer (if you don't want to) not automated gameplay?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2012-06-24 21:44:03 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
How is using a macro to automate LP store purchases so you don't have to be at the computer (if you don't want to) not automated gameplay?

Using a macro to press f1, f2, f3 is also "automated gameplay", I guess. vOV

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#185 - 2012-06-24 21:49:02 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse"..


Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts.

Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me!

The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread.
You are wrong. He used the keyboard, in the way CCP have already deemed to be OK.

GM Karidor wrote:
1) Keyboard macros a'la the G15 Logitech keyboard
This really depends on the exact useof those keyboard macros. General guideline: Automating gameplay: bad. Turning on all your hardeners with one key press: fine

The essence of the EULA is to prevent cheating. Cheating is defined currently by the EULA as automating gameplay to an extent that is not achievable by a human being. A player usinga macro to achieve (or sustain) automated gameplay will be at risk for warning or more severe actions.


Linkage.



The quote you make doesn't in any way support your argument.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Lexmana
#186 - 2012-06-24 21:51:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Lord Zim wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
How is using a macro to automate LP store purchases so you don't have to be at the computer (if you don't want to) not automated gameplay?

Using a macro to press f1, f2, f3 is also "automated gameplay", I guess. vOV

But that particular use case was deemed OK. Didn't you read? What wasn't OK was to achieve or sustain automated gameplay. I ask you again, wasn't that exactly what they (supposedly) did? And they did it because no human could stand to do it in time. Thats why they (supposedly) had to use a bot. Tell me where I am wrong?
Alaya Carrier
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2012-06-24 21:59:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
They did use an EULA violating macro.

-----Edit-----

Post edited.
Rule 13. Do not post about bugs and exploits.

ISD Tyrozan
Ensign
Community Communications Liaisons
Interstellar Services Department
Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#188 - 2012-06-24 22:08:57 UTC
NickyYo wrote:

Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding.

I would be shocked if you either knew what an EULA was or could read and fully comprehend it.
Powers Sa
#189 - 2012-06-24 22:12:25 UTC
A loophole is not a bug, a bug is mostly due poorly written code – a loophole like this is due poorly thought-out game mechanics.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.

Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2012-06-24 22:14:26 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Goons are crying big Jewbal tears. It's working. Well done, CCP.Big smile

Blatant antisemitism on a public forum. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Frying Doom
#191 - 2012-06-24 22:24:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Frederick Sanger wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Goons are crying big Jewbal tears. It's working. Well done, CCP.Big smile

Blatant antisemitism on a public forum. You should be ashamed of yourself.

As opposed to this page

http://eveinfo.net/wiki/inde~597.htm

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2012-06-24 22:26:27 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
How is using a macro to automate LP store purchases so you don't have to be at the computer (if you don't want to) not automated gameplay?

Using a macro to press f1, f2, f3 is also "automated gameplay", I guess. vOV

But that particular use case was deemed OK. Didn't you read? What wasn't OK was to achieve or sustain automated gameplay. I ask you again, wasn't that exactly what they (supposedly) did? And they did it because no human could stand to do it in time. Thats why they (supposedly) had to use a bot. Tell me where I am wrong?

I did read it, yes.

First of all, aryth said himself it was done over a period of weeks, it wasn't "14 hours grinding in one go". Second of all, what GM Karidor is talking about is automating something to an extent which humans can't. You've absolutely no evidence pointing to it being anything of the sort, yet you're jumping on the rumor which Jade is spreading.

Second of all, the example we've seen GMs use have been "to automate mining", which is a bit more involved than "press a key to press the accept button" would be, which is why I'm saying "f1 f2 f3 is also automated gameplay". It's literally "press f1, then f2, then f3".

If Aryth etc had made the macro so he could press the key and it would keep buying until he pressed another key, that would be something completely different. He didn't.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Frying Doom
#193 - 2012-06-24 22:28:38 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

For us to whine about something, don't you think it should affect us even one iota? It doesn't. We don't live in hisec with GSF chars because we've basically been permanently wardecced the last uh ... probably every year GSF's been in existence, and GS before then.

I am calling Bull on this one.

Maybe you do not come to Hi-sec but a hell of a lot of Goonswarm members do. They are everywhere.

There are so many in Hi-sec you should probably stop calling yourself a Null sec alliance.

So yes wardecs do effect a large number of Goonswarm members.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2012-06-24 22:29:37 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Frederick Sanger wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Goons are crying big Jewbal tears. It's working. Well done, CCP.Big smile

Blatant antisemitism on a public forum. You should be ashamed of yourself.

As opposed to this page

http://eveinfo.net/wiki/inde~597.htm

Your inability to correctly make a link is amazing.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#195 - 2012-06-24 22:31:29 UTC
this thread is so bad

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Lexmana
#196 - 2012-06-24 22:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Lord Zim wrote:
What GM Karidor is talking about is automating something to an extent which humans can't

You should probably stop posting because you are not helping your side at all. Are you actually implying that GM Karidor means that mining bots are OK? Because a human can mine right?

Lord Zim wrote:
If Aryth etc had made the macro so he could press the key and it would keep buying until he pressed another key, that would be something completely different. He didn't.

I don't know if Aryth macroed the LP store purchases. It was just suggested in the threadnought. But the only way you could know this is if you were him. Are you Aryth?
Lexmana
#197 - 2012-06-24 23:03:40 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#198 - 2012-06-24 23:17:34 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
http://jestertrek.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/total-war.html

Actually, heh, I hadn't read that one yet. So he's claiming we lost ships at a hysterical rate, panicked and whined?

The only reason I even knew we were at war with jade (I never read the wardec mails, they're irrelevant chaff) was Jade's whining about how CCP were changing the wardec mechanic because of goons, and totally and utterly ignoring the fact that tons of corps had tons of free wars, and that every war available to the general public was being dogpiled. Nooooo, that's certainly not it, it has to be the goon conspiracy.

Sigh.


I never said it was, though was questioning why complaining about one thing but not the other :)
and end of the day isn't eve built on player conflict? :) so would have thought CCP wouldn't have been that adverse to a somewhat free for all HS wise lol, nvm :) guess CCP decided the last changed wardec mechanics were not WAI and had unintended consequences lol
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#199 - 2012-06-24 23:43:40 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
What GM Karidor is talking about is automating something to an extent which humans can't

You should probably stop posting because you are not helping your side at all. Are you actually implying that GM Karidor means that mining bots are OK? Because a human can mine right?

Lord Zim wrote:
If Aryth etc had made the macro so he could press the key and it would keep buying until he pressed another key, that would be something completely different. He didn't.

I don't know if Aryth macroed the LP store purchases. It was just suggested in the threadnought. But the only way you could know this is if you were him. Are you Aryth?


Aryth wrote:

Pisov viet wrote:

So, did you personally pushed a button for hundreds of implants and thousands of BPC? How long did it took you to redeem all that **** from the LP store?



G19 macro you hold down. You have to pay attention due to FW fluctuations and such. This was also over WEEKS, not days. We were in motion within 8 hours of patch.


So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Dave stark
#200 - 2012-06-24 23:45:02 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
So yeah macroed but he was at the keyboard. Is that good or bad lol


depends, how painful is RSI?