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Tarn Kugisa

Kugisa Dynamics

Likes received: 558

#961 - 2012-06-24 18:10:00 UTC

Adelphie wrote:

In Eve I am almost exclusively a small gang/solo pvper, and have been for the past few years. I've noticed the traffic in null slowly reducing to a point where it is actually safer to be around null than highsec in many cases, which in my mind is not the way things should be. From a purely selfish point of view I would like to see this trend reverse and see null becoming as vibrant as it has been in days gone by so I've got stuff to shoot.

I explored why this has been happening a while ago, and it generated some really interesting ideas, so I'd like to revisit it. If nothing else it gives the players and CCP something to think about.

There are a few reasons that I can see for a reduction of traffic, mainly caused by a lack of migration of players into null:

- High barriers to entry for newer players/corps/alliances to move to null
- Not enough of a carrot to entice players away from highsec
- A lack of differentiated content in null vs. other areas of space.
- Current alliances entrenched in their space.
- Not enough reason for industrialists to be in null

So my question to the masses is this: What features could be introduced to reverse the trend, and increase the number of people wanting to come to null?

Before we get into the inevitable flame session that is General Discussion, I wanted to stress that I don't want this to be a "y u no pvp carebears" thread. There's enough of those already. Equally, for people who want to stay in highsec - that's fine too... nobody's forcing you to leave!

And you gatecamping fools wonder why there is no traffic.
There is no traffic because you have a 100% chance of running into a Bubble+Campers while travelling, which makes even less sense when they go about shooting neutral passerby's. Could you leave the other fools who go and do stuff in NPC null, away from the crazy suprise buttsecks that is Nullsec Politics.

TL;DR Shoot Blue's, not Neutral Indy's (Unless, of course you have a personal conflict with them)

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt

Asuri Kinnes

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 803

#962 - 2012-06-24 18:34:39 UTC

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Quote:

because you have the luxury of ensuring that any wormhole with bad people on the other side is closed right up

Asuri Kinnes wrote:

because you have the luxury of ensuring that any wormhole with bad people on the other side is closed right up

Sure, you can also "chain roll holes" to find pvp, empty null-sec to go rat/anom in and since WH's are mass/time limited it restricts the kinds of things you can do.

Also don't have to worry about titans or hotdrops, and if you *do* get surprise *********'d, you know that either someone has done their homework and seeded your WH over a period of time (with combat ships) and you haven't seen it (not too many WH corps have 23.5/7 coverage) OR there is a limited amount of tonnage coming through to you. You can then decide to tactically collapse the wormhole on your enemies (stranding one of your guys on the far side to trap the enemy in with you if you have to) and then race to see who can locate and control the next entrance - defenders or attackers.

Gaining and maintaining "hole control" is another level of strategic thinking when engaging...

Also!

You don't have to worry that your neighbor has 50,000 neighbors - usually fights are (admittedly) much smaller than 0.0 fleet battles - most people end up holding one "WH" system. But to imply (as others have, i.e. "Seleene" and the pants-on-head stupid WH Stabilizer) that these "home" systems are impregnable is wrong. You have to want the fight, you have to spend time staging your forces (in our case we spent three *MONTHS* getting assets in a WH we were going to invade) then you spring your trap. All while not getting spotted/ganked/locked out.

Bonus points for poding your enemies out of the WH after you pop their ships.

Another reason people are in WH's instead of 0.0 - in WH's a small group *can* make their own way. They can create their own "story" - WH's aren't all claimed. And even with claimed WH's - because the routes in and out are *not* static - you can't always lock people out of your 'hole...

As was stated earlier in this thread - Null sec Stations should give benefits to null-sec industry, should have (MORE THAN) enough slots so that "Industry in Deklin doesn't have to be dedicated to only making fuel blocks for the Crucible release", more research/invention and refining bonus'/slots than Hi-sec. (That is also pants on head silly that Null doesn't). Also (imho - and as I've said before) Null industry/refining/invention all should be able to be done at higher % of profit/margin than in Hi-sec (RP it as "we don't need no stinking OSHA in Null-sec).

Still and all - I still don't think Null Sec alliances have done enough to combat the damage wrought in their name by those who have shiptoasted over the years, giving null-sec'ers a bad reputation to just about everyone else. Most of the time it seems like giving bad information/trolling/insulting isn't just tolerated by Null residents, it's actively encouraged...

This thread (for the most part) being somewhat free of that.

but in reply, usually it's only the Russian Care-Bear corps that *try* and crash people out - but nice try.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Marconus Orion

Imperial Academy

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 468

#963 - 2012-06-24 19:00:54 UTC

Marconus Orion wrote:

Malcanis wrote:

Mrr Woodcock wrote:

In regards to Null. Clearly the most important change in my mind. "THE MOON HAS BEEN DEPLETED OF RESOURCES".
Once your POS posts this message, the Tech moon re spawns at a completely random point in null. Then you got to go find it. When I say random, the only place off limits is LOw and high sec. So it could spawn in unknown space. The average harvest time for any moon should be 30 day, some special ones could go 60 days, none longer.

I advise you to scan all the moons in a single constellation before making this recommendation again.

Then do it again every 30 days.

I advise you to realize that this type of activity is not limited to JUST ONE PERSON. Love how you guys go on and on about, "Damn those carebears thinking this is a solo game when it is a multi-player game! MAKE FRIENDS!!!" Then shout that moon probing entire areas HAS to be done by one guy.

Please explain.

None of you want to have a crack at this?

GoonWaffe 6,953
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Likes received: 6,953	#964 - 2012-06-24 19:06:12 UTC MM, moon probing CTAs. Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Shepard Wong Ogeko

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 801

#965 - 2012-06-24 19:14:20 UTC

Marconus Orion wrote:

Malcanis wrote:

Mrr Woodcock wrote:

I advise you to scan all the moons in a single constellation before making this recommendation again.

Then do it again every 30 days.

None of you want to have a crack at this?

Its not just one guy going out to scan moons. There are just so many moons, that even with a group it is tedious to go to so many moons, launch probes and then tabulate the results without screwing up.

It sucks, but as things are now, the tedium pays out in the end if you don't screw up and find the right moons.

Cycle those moons every 30 days and that tedium suddenly becomes not so worth it. It becomes more fun to just reinforce the mining POS's of your enemies.

Its already pretty bad when it is easier to get a group to pound on a structure for a couple hours than scan moons. Nullsec doesn't really need anymore boring as hell activities, so don't be surprised when we blow off or ignore suggestions that increase the boring and tedious content to make nullsec more "vibrant".

It sounds more like punishing nullsec than improving it.

Danfen Fenix

Likes received: 164

#966 - 2012-06-24 19:16:35 UTC

Marconus Orion wrote:

Malcanis wrote:

Mrr Woodcock wrote:

I advise you to scan all the moons in a single constellation before making this recommendation again.

Then do it again every 30 days.

None of you want to have a crack at this?

You're forgetting the moving...

Lets say they get randomised.

Firstly you have to scan all the moons again.
Then, if you want a certain moon in someone elses territory, you have to fight them out.
Once (if) you beat them, then you have to move all your infrastructure.
Then you have to start mining & shifting resources.

By the time you're at that last step, it's almost time for another reshuffle. Therefore, there will be little to no gain from capturing the moon, meaning the entire war was more costly than it's worth, meaning alliances will not see any profit in taking moons.

This wont do anything to increase conflict, and if anything make things worse.

Lord Zim

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,451

#967 - 2012-06-24 20:09:37 UTC

Marconus Orion wrote:

None of you want to have a crack at this?[/quote]
So I take it you're really interested in trying to promote what can only be the worst solution to the "tech problem" imaginable, then. Very well.

First of all, you're going to have to have a certain set of people for the job. It's going to be boring as ****, so chances are once you're beyond a certain size people are going to expect some form for compensation or they'll just go do other things which'll actually pay them directly. Then you have to wait for them to scan all over the place, because it's timeconsuming as ****. Then the POS guys have to run around and take down old POSes and put up new POSes and setup all the mining chains etc. This'll be something which would become more or less a constant activity if you're trying to maintain even a moderate size empire, unless you're going to say that moons deplete every 30/60 days on the dot.

And regardless of all this having to be in place, there'll be quite a lot of downtime on the moons, which means that if you thought T2 prices were expensive before, heh.

But hey, let's not let these minor quibbles stand in the way of a bad idea.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Marconus Orion

Imperial Academy

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 468

#968 - 2012-06-24 21:14:31 UTC

Danfen Fenix wrote:

Firstly you have to scan all the moons again.

Again, you guys are always basing the 'Oh god... /wrists!' on CCP keeping the current moon probing mechanic the same.

Danfen Fenix wrote:

Then, if you want a certain moon in someone elses territory, you have to fight them out.

How is this a problem?

Danfen Fenix wrote:

Once (if) you beat them, then you have to move all your infrastructure.

Not that I see an issue with this, but again, you are assuming the current POS mechanics, including the way you deploy one, would be the same as they are.

Danfen Fenix wrote:

Then you have to start mining & shifting resources.

There could be a mechanic that (if the reinforce mechanic is the same in the sense it turns off all structures requiring CPU, that the moon miner would stop mining, thus the supply of whatever goo on the moon would not be mined, so the amount would be the same when you turn on your moon miner.

Danfen Fenix wrote:

By the time you're at that last step, it's almost time for another reshuffle. Therefore, there will be little to no gain from capturing the moon, meaning the entire war was more costly than it's worth, meaning alliances will not see any profit in taking moons.

Like I mentioned above several times, you are assuming the entire process of moon probing, POS and moon mining mechanics would be IDENTICAL to what we have now.

I grow tired of pointing out that fact to you guys nonstop. It seems there is a great deal of you who actually want the entire mechanic when it comes to moons to stay the same as they are now. You shoot down any new ideas on changing with the current mechanics, which is silly.

Marconus Orion

Imperial Academy

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 468

#969 - 2012-06-24 21:17:19 UTC

Lord Zim wrote:

So I take it you're really interested in trying to promote what can only be the worst solution to the "tech problem" imaginable, then. Very well.

First of all, you're going to have to have a certain set of people for the job. It's going to be boring as ****, so chances are once you're beyond a certain size people are going to expect some form for compensation or they'll just go do other things which'll actually pay them directly. Then you have to wait for them to scan all over the place, because it's timeconsuming as ****. Then the POS guys have to run around and take down old POSes and put up new POSes and setup all the mining chains etc. This'll be something which would become more or less a constant activity if you're trying to maintain even a moderate size empire, unless you're going to say that moons deplete every 30/60 days on the dot.

And regardless of all this having to be in place, there'll be quite a lot of downtime on the moons, which means that if you thought T2 prices were expensive before, heh.

But hey, let's not let these minor quibbles stand in the way of a bad idea.

I'm just going to direct you to the post above. I find it amusing that you site low pay for those doing the moon mining, yet higher T2 prices. I think they need to pod the middle man in that equation.

Viziam Amarr Empire 3,706
Nicolo da'Vicenza Viziam Amarr Empire Likes received: 3,706	#970 - 2012-06-24 21:21:56 UTC the best way to make nullsec more vibrant and fun: more moon probing more pos anchoring more structure shooting


Marconus Orion Imperial Academy Amarr Empire Likes received: 468	#971 - 2012-06-24 21:33:59 UTC Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: the best way to make nullsec more vibrant and fun: more moon probing more pos anchoring more structure shooting Your lack of imagination is appalling.

Shepard Wong Ogeko

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 801

#972 - 2012-06-24 21:34:21 UTC

Marconus Orion wrote:

If moons can be scanned like planets, and if the POS changes make dropping and running POS's easier, and if the monthly scanning/fighting/pos-setup is worth the decreased moon income (you have to figure in down time between goo migration)...

That is a whole lot of if's with no concrete ideas. It sounds like a lot of trouble and extra expense for a decrease in moon goo production.

Lord Zim

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,451

#973 - 2012-06-24 21:40:49 UTC

Marconus Orion wrote:

Again, you guys are always basing the 'Oh god... /wrists!' on CCP keeping the current moon probing mechanic the same.

So you're saying we should have a way to scan a whole system in a minute? Okay then.

Marconus Orion wrote:

Not that I see an issue with this, but again, you are assuming the current POS mechanics, including the way you deploy one, would be the same as they are.

So a special moon mining POS which deploys and autofuels itself and sets up the mining in a minute from deployment? Okay then.

Marconus Orion wrote:

I grow tired of pointing out that fact to you guys nonstop. It seems there is a great deal of you who actually want the entire mechanic when it comes to moons to stay the same as they are now. You shoot down any new ideas on changing with the current mechanics, which is silly.

There have been absolutely ****-all ideas on "changing the mechanics" other than "MOVE THE MOONGOO AROUND IT'LL BE AWESOME AND IT'LL FIX TECH".

Marconus Orion wrote:

Yes. Again, unless the entire process means no downtime between reshufflings, then whatever the reshuffling mechanic would do is ... wait for it ... make people spend time hunting them down, retowering them and start to mine them again. Which means less moongoo is going to be extracted, unless you're going to buff that as well to 2-3x today's output or something.

But hey, let's continue saying "make moongoo move around, it'll be awesome and fix tech", and whenever someone shoots down the idea based on today's mechanics, let's wave our arms around and talk about pies in the sky without making any comments or ideas whatsoever about what these changes might be, while deriding those who "lack the foresight you obviously think you have.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Marconus Orion

Imperial Academy

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 468

#974 - 2012-06-24 21:45:53 UTC

Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

Marconus Orion wrote:

I understand that. I think there should be more than just one way to get an idea for what is on a moon. I also think that the output should not be 100% of one material. What if (this of course goes into another mechanic) a station could mine, with enough upgrades, could mine all the moons on the same planet it sits in orbit. Also what if a POS was the best way to mine the most moon goo, but there is other ways, like the station. Also down to small time moon mining, like PI (I hate saying PI, because it is terrible, but I mean in the scale of what comes from PI).

It really should have several levels of effort:reward. Also why not splash in some of that 'farm and field' stuff that everyone is wanting. Interdict those moon goo transports that go from (insert whatever structure v0v) the station has out grabbing goo from the moons at the planet.

I guess the way I envision all of this stuff is basically not building off current mechanics (specifically crappy/boring) ones we deal with now. Think of the end product in how you think it would be fun and engaging and then ask yourself; how do we get here while avoiding the same pitfalls we have now?

Aliastra Gallente Federation 8
Martil Aliastra Gallente Federation Likes received: 8	#975 - 2012-06-24 21:46:38 UTC Really a new coat of paint would jazz up the place a little and add re-sale value. Maybe a small extension off the kitchen.


Marconus Orion Imperial Academy Amarr Empire Likes received: 468	#976 - 2012-06-24 21:47:53 UTC Wears bitter goggles. Glass is always half empty. Is Lord Zim.

Marconus Orion

Imperial Academy

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 468

#977 - 2012-06-24 21:51:27 UTC

Martil wrote:

Really a new coat of paint would jazz up the place a little and add re-sale value. Maybe a small extension off the kitchen.

I like the idea of simply moving to a place with better scenery and building a brand new house that fits the needs we have today. The old place did the job it needed to years ago, but now we need someplace brand new.

Why do people insist on staying in the same crappy neighborhood in the same crappy house? I never know...

Lord Zim

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,451

#978 - 2012-06-24 21:54:28 UTC

Marconus Orion wrote:

Wears bitter goggles. Glass is always half empty. Is Lord Zim.

Proposes radical plan which would be cockstabby under current mechanics. Provides no alternative mechanics. Bitches when people don't know these mechanics he hasn't talked about anywhere. Is Marlona Sky.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 18,382
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. Likes received: 18,382	#979 - 2012-06-24 21:55:56 UTC 1 Marconus Orion wrote: Wears bitter goggles. Glass is always half empty. Is Lord Zim. Him and his stupid facts, eh? "Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming." Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016