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exploit vs. sloppy game mechanic design
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Frying Doom
#141 - 2012-06-24 16:23:41 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first.

Last I checked, misc ccp devs were saying that the days of "it's time to launch, nevermind its state just launch it and we'll fix it later" were over. Which would mean that they should've delayed the launch until they reworked the mechanic until it was no longer gameable.

If they did that we would never see anything and it would end up being like the United Sates Government procurement programs, they would spend lots of money and we would never see anything.

As it was a known bug, people should have had enough brains not to touch it. The documentation on it was public but so was the bug.

They exploited a known bug and should be punished for it. Saying but CCP left it there is hardly a valid excuse.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2012-06-24 16:25:41 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse"..


Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts.

Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me!

The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread.


You mean the argument where you assumed


I mean precisely what I said. I don't need a goonswarm forum spin-doctor to reinterpret my posts. (and nor frankly does anyone else actually wanting an open discussion).

Yeah, well, see, the problem with your assumption is that for it to be "automating this process to gain an advantage over you", it would have to be the "press once, go make dinner" type of macro. As this quote shows:
Aryth wrote:
G19 macro you hold down. You have to pay attention due to FW fluctuations and such. This was also over WEEKS, not days. We were in motion within 8 hours of patch.

it's perfectly legal as CCP themselves have stated, as it requires the user be at the keyboard.

So uh, yes, I definitely "lost" that argument.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#143 - 2012-06-24 16:26:36 UTC
Varesk wrote:


They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. CCP was caught with their pants around their ankles and bent over the desk. They are doing the only thing CCP knows how to do, which is remove legally gained assets and silence the players via moderation or forum bans.


CCP really ****** this expansion up with the "revamp" to faction warfare and the new Inventory. Its sorta funny since they had 6 months to work on it. Considering Crucible was done in 4-6 weeks.

Maybe its time for CCP to start only doing one expansion a year and make sure its 100 percent ready for TQ. Hire some people to actually QA the patch, instead of using SiSi and not reading the feedback threads.

This summers expansion, not the worse by far but close, is just another notch in CCPs belt for delivering expansions with more problems than actual fixes.


outside of goonswarm and inventory fix's aside.... the latest patches have been resounding successes across the eve community

The people playing, not exploiting, FW are loving it.

Maybe it's time you realize the game grows, expands and there will be mistakes. Goons being crybabies is evidence of their inability to deal with this (or insistence to troll it) ... the game itself and the development process seems to be a green light for 99% of the game.

Or maybe goons just need to learn how to play? I mean, this latest stunt was about 75% stupid and ill conceived and 25% in game savy and I'm pretty sure the "CCP isn't perfect therefore they've poisoned the games foundation"


and what are you on about "legally gained assets"?
If we needed any more proof you have no idea what you are talking about...

let me guess. You're a big time lawyer in RL and your firm will be contacting Iceland through the UN to address this violation of international rights?
Frying Doom
#144 - 2012-06-24 16:26:57 UTC
Varesk wrote:


They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. CCP was caught with their pants around their ankles and bent over the desk. They are doing the only thing CCP knows how to do, which is remove legally gained assets and silence the players via moderation or forum bans.


CCP really ****** this expansion up with the "revamp" to faction warfare and the new Inventory. Its sorta funny since they had 6 months to work on it. Considering Crucible was done in 4-6 weeks.

Maybe its time for CCP to start only doing one expansion a year and make sure its 100 percent ready for TQ. Hire some people to actually QA the patch, instead of using SiSi and not reading the feedback threads.

This summers expansion, not the worse by far but close, is just another notch in CCPs belt for delivering expansions with more problems than actual fixes.

As this was explained so heavily during the last CSM election as CSM 6's baby, if you don't like it, don't vote for people who were on CSM 6. Find someone who represents you better and fight for them. Or just make up crackpot conspiracy theories lol. Oh wait they can be counted as rumors, so don't do that Big smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#145 - 2012-06-24 16:45:01 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Wisdom Divine wrote:
This argument is not partisan.

The way CCP is handling this, it seems the scale of the operation had precedence over the legality of the operation.

A true sandbox can only be concerned about legality, not scale.



Sometimes you need to sit back and have a dispassonate look at the absurdity of some of these statements. CCP is a games company that run an MMO for profit. They are not some kind of Stanford Prison Experiment style academic study on the psychology of sandbox behaviour. This is a game first and foremost. If some of the players are cheating at the game they need to be stopped so the rest of the players can enjoy the game on the assumption that the game rules are preserved by the organizer.

If you guys really want to do the academic experimentation thing you should probably write up an abstract and pitch for funding.




Nice strawman you have going there.


When somebody is punished for an otherwise legal action only because of its scale, it wasn't cheating. It wasn't breaking the rules. It was punishing success.


I have no beef with either Goons or anti-Goons. Perhaps that is why I can see something you failed to. It's not just players who cheat. Devs can cheat too. It has happened at least once before.


CCP vowed it won't happen again. That's why rules should be the same for everyone. Clear rules keep check on both players and devs.


Judging legality is a very good way to have clear rules.

Judging scale not so much. If CCP is indeed choosing scale over legality in the FW fiasco, it's a backward step to the times CCP vowed to never happen again.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#146 - 2012-06-24 16:51:48 UTC
Wisdom Divine wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Wisdom Divine wrote:
This argument is not partisan.

The way CCP is handling this, it seems the scale of the operation had precedence over the legality of the operation.

A true sandbox can only be concerned about legality, not scale.



Sometimes you need to sit back and have a dispassonate look at the absurdity of some of these statements. CCP is a games company that run an MMO for profit. They are not some kind of Stanford Prison Experiment style academic study on the psychology of sandbox behaviour. This is a game first and foremost. If some of the players are cheating at the game they need to be stopped so the rest of the players can enjoy the game on the assumption that the game rules are preserved by the organizer.

If you guys really want to do the academic experimentation thing you should probably write up an abstract and pitch for funding.




Nice strawman you have going there.


When somebody is punished for an otherwise legal action only because of its scale, it wasn't cheating. It wasn't breaking the rules. It was punishing success.


I have no beef with either Goons or anti-Goons. Perhaps that is why I can see something you failed to. It's not just players who cheat. Devs can cheat too. It has happened at least once before.


CCP vowed it won't happen again. That's why rules should be the same for everyone. Clear rules keep check on both players and devs.


Judging legality is a very good way to have clear rules.

Judging scale not so much. If CCP is indeed choosing scale over legality in the FW fiasco, it's a backward step to the times CCP vowed to never happen again.


you used that word again, legal action

how is it legal? What laws are these things covered under? What jurisdiction are we in for this discussion?

or would you mean "Permitted by the EULA of the game, which also states CCP can pretty much change their minds on any of those rules because they own and operate the game, including complete ownership of any virtual goods in your wallet or assets window"

I agree, mine is a bit of a mouthful... but much more technically correct than your "legal actions" crap

at what point will Goons be lawyering up? Since this is a legal matter and all.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#147 - 2012-06-24 16:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Lord Zim wrote:

Aryth wrote:
G19 macro you hold down. You have to pay attention due to FW fluctuations and such. This was also over WEEKS, not days. We were in motion within 8 hours of patch.

it's perfectly legal as CCP themselves have stated, as it requires the user be at the keyboard.
So uh, yes, I definitely "lost" that argument.


CCP have stated NOTHING yet in relation to this macro lp store collection issue. So please stop lying and making things up.

As I said, only CCP can be counted on to look at the pattern of macro use in this case and decide if it was consistant with giving the user an advantage in acquiring wealth in game. I'm hardly likely to count the words of the perpetrator of this exploit as somehow being sufficient to decide the whole of the story now am I?

I doesn't matter if Aryth was afk for 28 hours or 2 mins. If that macro was running to automate the collection of lp store offers that cost a normal player 2 clicks each then he was gaining an unfair advantage by macro. Its pretty astonishing you cannot see the problem with your argument - but then again - :goons:

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#148 - 2012-06-24 16:58:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse"..


Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts.

Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me!

The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread.


You mean the argument where you assumed


I mean precisely what I said. I don't need a goonswarm forum spin-doctor to reinterpret my posts. (and nor frankly does anyone else actually wanting an open discussion).



Including sreegs in the now-locked thread lol

Quote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first.

Last I checked, misc ccp devs were saying that the days of "it's time to launch, nevermind its state just launch it and we'll fix it later" were over. Which would mean that they should've delayed the launch until they reworked the mechanic until it was no longer gameable.


last I checked because CCP made the mistake of allowing the exploit into the game didnt make it right to exploit that exploit.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2012-06-24 17:10:46 UTC
Varesk wrote:
They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen.

This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2012-06-24 17:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

Aryth wrote:
G19 macro you hold down. You have to pay attention due to FW fluctuations and such. This was also over WEEKS, not days. We were in motion within 8 hours of patch.

it's perfectly legal as CCP themselves have stated, as it requires the user be at the keyboard.
So uh, yes, I definitely "lost" that argument.


CCP have stated NOTHING yet in relation to this macro lp store collection issue. So please stop lying and making things up.

I'm not lying or making things up, you're the one who's interpreting and assuming what the nature of the keyboard macro is, and in essence start a rumor.

Jade Constantine wrote:
I doesn't matter if Aryth was afk for 28 hours or 2 mins. If that macro was running to automate the collection of lp store offers that cost a normal player 2 clicks each then he was gaining an unfair advantage by macro. Its pretty astonishing you cannot see the problem with your argument - but then again - :goons:

Sounds to me like you've pretty much made up your mind.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#151 - 2012-06-24 17:22:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Jade Constantine wrote:
So please stop lying and making things up.


would not lying and making things up BE that rumor creating stuff CCP are looking to ban ppl for now? After all incorrect, and purposefully incorrect rumors are damaging

Wonder how much longer we're gonna be allowed to do this "youre rumoring" "no you are" before CCP starts calling THAT spam/trolling and banning ppl for it lol

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2012-06-24 17:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mortimer Civeri
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
So please stop lying and making things up.


would not lying and making things up BE that rumor creating stuff CCP are looking to ban ppl for now? After all incorrect, and purposefully incorrect rumors are damaging

This disscussion has devolved into, "Ooh!, I'm gon'na tell mom CCP."


EDIT: His edit makes it even more so.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#153 - 2012-06-24 17:29:26 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
So please stop lying and making things up.


would not lying and making things up BE that rumor creating stuff CCP are looking to ban ppl for now? After all incorrect, and purposefully incorrect rumors are damaging

This disscussion has devolved into, "Ooh!, I'm gon'na tell mom CCP."


Thought that was EVE-O was all about; its just usually not so public

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#154 - 2012-06-24 17:45:43 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Varesk wrote:
They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen.

This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words.



yet all this time people have been screaming that high seccers need to not have thier hands held in ultra safe wow land... (you know high sec)

and now you are saying that virtually the very anti-hand hold crowd needed to have thier hands held so they wouldnt go over the top using a broken game function?
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2012-06-24 17:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyron-Baktos
people still posting these moronic threads? Goons would have been fine if once they saw how redicioulus it was they stopped. Them continuing to abuse the system knowing that it would be patched is where they screwed up. It's obvious they hoped that by them telling CCP about the bug and then posting here screaming about "sandbox" they would look like the good guys and be able to keep their fortune.

Looks like they lost the meta game on this one, lol

CCP - 1
Goons - 0
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2012-06-24 17:51:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Aramatheia wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Varesk wrote:
They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen.

This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words.



yet all this time people have been screaming that high seccers need to not have thier hands held in ultra safe wow land... (you know high sec)

and now you are saying that virtually the very anti-hand hold crowd needed to have thier hands held so they wouldnt go over the top using a broken game function?

The general rule of thumb regarding the use of game mechanics have been that as long as CCP hasn't said something isn't an exploit, it isn't regarded as an exploit. When they have said it is an exploit, hands off or get burnt.

Not that this stopped such things as POS bowling etc, of course.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2012-06-24 17:56:58 UTC
But this isn't about CCP punishing people for exploits they weren't told about. This is about CCP punishing Goons for exploits they weren't told about.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#158 - 2012-06-24 17:58:56 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Varesk wrote:
They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen.

This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words.


Quoting an inaccurate quote doesn't really help your argument. Only people that can definitively say whether exploits and abuse happened are CCP. We have opinions on it certainly, but stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact.


The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2012-06-24 18:00:11 UTC
Aramatheia wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Varesk wrote:
They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen.

This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words.



yet all this time people have been screaming that high seccers need to not have thier hands held in ultra safe wow land... (you know high sec)

and now you are saying that virtually the very anti-hand hold crowd needed to have thier hands held so they wouldnt go over the top using a broken game function?

CCP saying, "Don't do that." isn't hand holding, it is laying down a law. Kind of like how the Police don't hold your hand, and warn you about every law you might break, they will just arest you for breaking them.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2012-06-24 18:13:18 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Quoting an inaccurate quote doesn't really help your argument. Only people that can definitively say whether exploits and abuse happened are CCP. We have opinions on it certainly, but stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

Good thing you're good at not labelling actions as "abuse" before CCP have said it is abuse, eh?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat